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The new message above the shoutbox

evansorchid	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:18 PM That's just obnoxious. Very uninviting. Can't we opt out of having that message on our personal page?
ShadowMom	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:25 PM After all the complaints about spam, now you're complaining because we give fair warning? Ignore it!
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:25 PM Dunno I just here
K3VIN	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:26 PM i think its cool
desiderata	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:26 PM Personally, I think it looks awkward and intrusive. And users already have the ability to block repeat spam offenders so I don't see why it's necessary.
desiderata	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:28 PM Also, I think while it's meant to stop the "yo yo yo check my beets! one thingy!!!!" it will also stop legitimate artists from shouting their friends about their new songs.
K3VIN	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:28 PM it saves admins time to warn people again and again... and it links to proper palces... the forums.. im sure nobody will not like this site because of that one thing.
Distilled1	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:32 PM it just looks intrusive. needs to be smaller or something plus I think it whaked out my page the web cam is at the bottom
desiderata	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:36 PM Maybe it could go beneath the shoutbox. There's always whitespace down there and it wouldn't be as intrusive. Users would still see it when they went down to type in the box. I don't know ... my guess is it's only temporary until the redesign takes effect ...
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:36 PM I think it should be in the AUP instead. That way if someone does it, their account can just be disabled without further warning. I hate spammers (VocalEnhancer can SUCK IT!) but the message is rather uninviting.
jack	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:37 PM I have differing opinions on it. it could be a lot bigger and a lot more instrusive if it needed to be - if it's too "big" then perhaps i can try and shorten the text. I don't see how your page is "whaked out" Distilled1 - could you please elaborate?
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:41 PM or maybe put it just below the shoutbox ... above the buddylist ... dunno ... think I will now
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:41 PM one thing ... it has made the promotions forums much more active
jack	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:43 PM it's moved.
desiderata	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:44 PM Much better. Nice job, Jack.
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:49 PM I want it BIGGER
jack	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:51 PM
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 2:54 PM dunna worry about it Jack ... they complain about snow fallin cause they think it is dandruff
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:00 PM sides its fun to them once in a while
ShadowMom	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:01 PM I'm with Tameas.. you have no idea how much time we have to spend asking people not to spam the shout boxes. People don't appreciate it. And it's a public area, just like the forums are, where spamming is prohibited. Telling your friends is not spamming. Copying and pasting the same message over and over in everyone's box ... is spamming.
jack	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:03 PM Here's how I see it. The link is there, and visible. People don't have to click it and read it, but they should.. it's a bit like reading the EULA for programs. Just because you didn't read it or even look at it, doesn't mean you didn't agree to the terms. Perhaps it should say: By posting in shoutboxes you agree to (link)these terms.
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:05 PM and your banned ... nah too brutal
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:07 PM cool on the agree to these terms thingy
evansorchid	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:13 PM That looks much better. I can live with that.
Fraser	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:17 PM I have no idea what you guys are talking about, so I'll just smile and nod.... Smile and nod...
ShadowMom	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:18 PM We'll still spend a lot of time warning them, then. We can't suspend them if they didn't read it. Most people never read the EULA, either, till you post it in their box and they can't ignore it anymore.
victorsskull	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:32 PM I like it jack leave it the way you had it
GeneHilbert	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:32 PM I concur - it’s obnoxious and it would not be necessary if subscribers had the option to delete unwanted shouts.....
jack	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:34 PM How is it obnoxious?
K3VIN	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:46 PM dont mind people jack.. people just dont like change.. lol
ShadowMom	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:49 PM Gene--Just ask... just ASK...Vic doesn't have anything else to do anyway and he loves to delete things.
GeneHilbert	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 3:59 PM It’s obnoxious in the fact that it denotes negative connotations on my page. I don't want to ask.... I just want to be able to do it..... There are times when there are no admin available, as well I would hope that the admin that are here have far more important and pressing matters than to tidy up my shout box. It's my page - I prefer to have control over it's content.
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 4:02 PM ShadowMom: We can't suspend them if they didn't read it. I am not an admin, but I totally disagree with this. But then I changed my mind - here is why: I signed up for another account here to confirm a suspicion (admins, please delete the account "testpleasedelete"). Nowhere during the signup procedure was I asked to put a check in a box stating that I had read the AUP/T's & C's. It let me sign up without agreeing to any terms. So, new users have actually not agreed to anything! And I am also having a hard time finding an AUP anywhere on the site that says "Thou Shalt Not Spam Shoutboxes". Therefore doing so (before this warning was in place) was not a suspendable offense. It would be a good idea to incorporate an acceptable use policy for new signups.
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 4:04 PM And I am with Gene - I am totally for the ability to delete shouts from your own page for both subscribers/non-subscribers alike. It's too easy for someone to leave some nasty/personal messages there and have it sit there until an admin can get around to removing it. I can't see a reason why the artist/user is not allowed to remove it themselves.
ShadowMom	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 4:24 PM We can't delete it, shadowself... just abandon it and it will fade away. And from the tos http://www.dmusic.com/tos/tos.php You agree to not use the DMusic Service (including the DMusic Forums described below) to: upload, post, email or otherwise transmit any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation, except in those areas that are designated for such purpose; A "Forum" refers to a chat area, bulletin board, "instant messaging" or virtual community offered as part of the DMusic Service. All DMusic Forum communications, including chat and bulletin board communications are public and not private communications. And in case you're not aware of it, your shout box is considered a public area.
jack	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 4:27 PM These are just my personal opinions on the subject: It takes about 5 seconds to fill out a helpdesk ticket or to send a dnote and we have admins that aren't gold-bolted too, and there's usually one online at some point in the day or night. Either way, there's no way everyone can be happy. I have tried to compromise by making the link less invasive but still visible
victorsskull	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 4:34 PM cry me a river please people you all are reminding me of 90 year olds that dont like change! this is suppose to help not make things worse
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:18 PM ShadowMom - I could not find the TOS easily, and there is no "please read before continuing" when signing up. I hate spam, I am not defending the spammers. But there is no "I accept" to the terms when signing up, that is my point. And the terms are buried. I still can't find them. What do I click on at dmusic.com to get to that URL you mentioned? And if this is how admins treat people who are voicing their opinions about changes to the site (when people have been ASKED to voice their opinions many times in the past), I'll seriously re-consider giving my input as a user/artist/subscriber.
Cryxan	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:26 PM On music.dmusic.com, there's a box in the left column titled "legal" with the TOS and Privacy Policy. This box, even recently, used to appear on the home page, community page, and a few other places. It most likely got lost in the shuffle with all the recent site changes. It's by no means an effort to hide the TOS.
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:27 PM Found it, it's under the "Legal" column.
jack	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:28 PM ShadowMom simply pointed out that there are terms to cover spammers - yes, the link may not be easy to find, but it's there. Perhaps that's something we can work on. My point was purely personal and not directed at anyone in particular - You have to understand, that from my standpoint, where do we draw the line concerning how much control a user has over his own page? We're not particularly restrictive, but we have simply chosen to not enable deleting comments from your shoutbox for whatever reason. The current system is that if you go through an admin, there are measures we can take to ensure the spammer in question doesn't get off with it. Sure, you might delete the shoutbox post, but then no-one is the wiser and the spammer is free to re-offend. Of course, you could just report him, but then what evidence do we have if the posts are deleted. This isn't the reason, if there is one by any means, I'm just throwing a few ideas to take in to consideration here. Again, my apologies if my first few posts seemed a little edgy. I hope having the link there at the bottom is better than having the text at the top. ShadowSelf: I see your point about there being no set "I Agree" button - The TOS page is quite buried and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of users don't know it exists. I think there's an "I Agree" thing for the artist sign-up, I'm sure we could do the same for the user sign ups too
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:29 PM Oops. Should have refreshed first. And I know that the TOS is not meant to be hidden... geez! Why would anyone want to hide something that makes the site a better place? In the new site design, why not include it with the nav-bar at the bottom of the page? That's where my eyes wanted to go first when I was digging for it.
victorsskull	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:31 PM Im just voicing my opinion as a user, just because Im a admin doesnt mean I have to be all nice and sweet, and as a user this is my point! every time some thing new starts here some one makes a forum complaining about it not once in a while! every single time and I just think its getting old, I cant wait til the new desighn is done and up the forums are going to go crazy
Cryxan	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:33 PM I agree, the nav bar at the bottom is a good place for it.
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:34 PM ...no-one is the wiser and the spammer is free to re-offend. Of course, you could just report him, but then what evidence do we have if the posts are deleted." Then why the heck is the shoutER allowed to delete their posts from your page? They could clean up their own evidence if they thought they were going to be reported. I (and maybe a few others) just think it makes more sense for you to have control over the content on your own page instead of the offender having control over it." id="225321">Jack, it was not your replies that kind of ticked me off - it was Vic's. I don't appreciate being thought of as a luddite. "...no-one is the wiser and the spammer is free to re-offend. Of course, you could just report him, but then what evidence do we have if the posts are deleted." Then why the heck is the shoutER allowed to delete their posts from your page? They could clean up their own evidence if they thought they were going to be reported. I (and maybe a few others) just think it makes more sense for you to have control over the content on your own page instead of the offender having control over it.
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:34 PM your a subscriber go look http://www.dmusic.com/forum/dmredesign/
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:35 PM only loves of IE look at the bottom
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:37 PM And Vic - we have been asked by the admins many times over to voice our opinions. And in doing so, DMusic has grown into a site that works for almost everyone. Yes, people will complain, but if enough people complain, then bad ideas can be weeded out early.
victorsskull	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:37 PM did you read my last post tell me Im wrong!
victorsskull	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:39 PM ok you do have a point but it still gets old
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:39 PM Tameas - show me where the link to the TOS is on the new main page, please.
jack	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:39 PM ShadowSelf: Fair point. I wish I had an idea on the why of things, but I am as clueless as you are. I just offered some things for consideration since I didn't see them raised earlier in the thread
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:44 PM Jack - I like Tracy's technique. Instead of immediately going ahead with a change, she gives a rough idea of what is going to be done then asks the users for their input. This way, brainstorming can happen and we as a community can come up with some pretty cool ideas about what would work best for the majority of the artists and users, and also the visitors. Maybe this technique can be utilized instead of a change being made and freaking out when people freak out about it. It's not my site, I am not an admin, but I am part of this community.
Cryxan	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:51 PM If that happened with every new feature, it would take forever to make changes... Some things you just gotta do and then iron things out as time goes on. Some changes go over very smoothly, others don't, and you can't always predict which ones will ruffle feathers. And some changes simply have to happen regardless of how unpopular they are. Remember when we turned off unlimited deep linking?
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:55 PM That's true, Cryx. But it's not fair to get upset when some people don't adopt new changes as well as others. Instead of insulting the people who don't like the change, it might be better to explain to them why the change was made or to ask their opinion on what could be done to make it better.
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 5:59 PM I'm shuttin up while the shuttin up is good
jack	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 6:01 PM I just followed instructions and implimented it, it wasn't my idea. Usually, most of the features I release are for administrators only. I always ask for feedback before, during and after the development process, but since this was just a piece of text above a shoutbox, neither me or the person that assigned me the task felt there was any real need for discussion over it. 'Freaking out' wouldn't be a term I'd use, but okay. I was, and still am, pretty edgy. There's a lot going on here with preparing for the redesign and trying to update the backlog of work to the redesign format amoungst other things takes its toll eventually. I understand that the original text was "in the way" so to speak, so I changed it. If I could have the final say in what things happen and what things don't here, then maybe I would approach things differently. I don't know whether you were directing your comments at me or not - as far as I see it, i listened to the feedback and made the changes as best I could without getting rid of it completely.
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 6:04 PM And as I said before, I was not directing my comments at you. And I think the change you made is a good one. I was not really for or against the text message, but I did agree with other members that may seem a bit uninviting right at the top of the shoutbox - though it really didn't bother me personally.
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 6:05 PM Sorry for being so outspoken, but... that's me.
victorsskull	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 6:10 PM same here
shadowself	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 6:11 PM Okay, we're good now? Excellent. Let's all go pound the fuck out of an emo kid.
jack	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 6:13 PM
victorsskull	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 6:20 PM Im there dude
Distilled1	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 7:13 PM my page looks good now. the web cam was down in the bottom menu, off the table, at least on Firefox at work I'm home now its I like it better at the bottom in the extra white space
Nickaz	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 7:19 PM i think a vote should have been implemented for the very reason that not everybody was fairly represented, it seems to me only people who constantly use these forums had their thoguht on it, and 90% of them complained. Just my 2 cents.
Nickaz	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 7:19 PM nvm about a vote. that is stupid. But everyone should have been included, not just a few heads
Nickaz	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 7:21 PM WoW a typo
imemine	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 8:04 PM This is your shoutbox:
imemine	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 8:09 PM DAMN---now we all have a mommy! Big Brother!
Israfel	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 8:11 PM Cripes...the things you miss when you're offline 17 hours. Sheesh!
hate9wicket	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 8:15 PM I have an idea, how 'bout if there were an agreement clause upon registration, where if you did not agree to not spamming the area you aren't supposed to, you wouldn't be able to shout on user pages, community shout box, or be able to post in the forums at all. There again, if you did agree to not spam, then did, I can see how a suspension or ban could be enforced. my
ChillinBuzz	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 8:28 PM send a dnote to every account, make a point of members reading the TOS and advise on spam if needs be too. fact is, if most ppl didnt read the terms as they joined, they dont really have a right to complain if they "unknowingly" break the rules! the subject of shoutbox spam is a very provocative one but the bottom line is, you got your journals, you got the dnotes, you got promo forums, yet some of you insist on spamming ppl you dont even know, i mean these people rarely make convo with the community at all and wonder why ppl get pissed off when all a member has to say is "peep my new track" and doesnt act like a member should... now shut the up and listen to my music
imemine	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 8:30 PM Buzz! "send a dnote to every account, make a point of members reading the TOS and advise on spam if needs be too." Wouldn't THAT be---Uuuuuuu ?
Israfel	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 8:38 PM That would be "reverse" Ime!
kingo	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 8:58 PM MAPS!!! See how?
ChillinBuzz	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 9:02 PM noticed how similar SPANK is to SPAM? this could get kinky
Israfel	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 9:12 PM Spiced Ham (Hormel canned pork developed in 1937)
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 9:20 PM http://www.spam.com/
Woof	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 10:21 PM Moderation is in order here, folks... not banishment. Just my opinion.
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 10:37 PM banning is too good for them ... burn them at the stake
ShadowMom	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 10:39 PM And we are kidding, woof. What would DMusic be without imemine and Israfel? Dead quiet...that's what!
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 10:57 PM sides we like to hear them complain ... they get very creative
onewhodreams	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 11:03 PM What's going on in here? (whoa, preview... Where have I been?)
TameasDust	Date: June 8, 2006 @ 11:05 PM antispam rules ... surprised us too
DeadraveN	Date: June 9, 2006 @ 12:34 AM apparently I missed seeing what was there before, but I don't mind what's beneath the shoutbox at all now. without looking, I'm not sure if this is in place or not already, but maybe a little info on where and when to spam could be put inthe help pages people see when they sign up as an artist..? just a thought. Other than that I like the system how it is now. People who might not know they're breaking rules/ruffling feathers by spamming get a warning, and it keeps the admins busy. hehe.. anyone foolish enough to persist gets in more trouble. what's wrong with that?
kyodylee	Date: June 9, 2006 @ 12:53 AM Pay Attention Now ... This is your shoutbox ... This is your shoutbox on SPAM ... See the difference ...
ShadowMom	Date: June 9, 2006 @ 2:11 AM

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