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The lack of critisism

GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:02 PM Where are the all the critical comments? About 90% percent of all the song comments are like this: Very nice song! Those are not comments. They're meaningless phrases repeated over and over again. They're not very helpful either. Is it that people are afraid of being critical and honest? Or just pure lazyness? Because you can write that kind of comments without actually listening the song. Well, here's a challenge for y'all: Next time you comment someone's song, try to find both good and bad sides about it. Offer something valuable to the artist. Not just the useless one sentence comment. Peace out!
K3VIN	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:03 PM yes
LostYears	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:11 PM i think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that it is an indie music site and because of the common genre confusions no one really knows what the authors goal was... although i do agree with u some constructive critisism wouldnt hurt in many cases, of course u also have some users who cant see past the problems with theur music and who dont want to deal with finding a solution
hantu	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:18 PM That time of the year again is it? lol I would suggest simply putting a messege in your journal and/or music page journal thingy, stating the kind of feedback you desire. This may seem silly to you, but there are some artists here that don't like the critical/honest side of comments, which has in the past resolted in what i can only describe as a hissy fit. Most annoying Dnote i have ever recieved Another nice idea which i haven't done for a long time is to delete all the "Very nice song!" comments. Might give some people a hint and will help you control your ego..... maybe
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:31 PM I would suggest simply putting a messege in your journal and/or music page journal thingy, stating the kind of feedback you desire. It doesn't work. This may seem silly to you, but there are some artists here that don't like the critical/honest side of comments, which has in the past resolted in what i can only describe as a hissy fit. Most annoying Dnote i have ever recieved Sigh So, now you're afraid to be critical because some douche sent you a note? You know those one sentence comments mean nothing. It doesn't matter if it was a great composer who spent years compsosing his symphony or just some wanker with a bad cover of Crazy Train; they still get the same comments. Another nice idea which i haven't done for a long time is to delete all the "Very nice song!" comments. Might give some people a hint and will help you control your ego..... maybe Unfortunately, I can't do that.
BlackMage	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:43 PM I used to think like that, but then I just really went "meh" about it. There are a lot of people who go really seriously to their music here, but some only do it for a fun hobby. Can't really expect everyone to be telling what's good and what's bad about a typical song. It's hard sometimes believe me. You can sometimes just hear a song and can't think of anything in particular to say about it. It can still be a complete shithouse or a work of art. You'll never know what will come. Sometimes it's easy to comment, some times it's not. I've just learned to value the listen and the occasional "Wow, great". I don't really take it as a "Wow, great" anymore. I just take it as a confirmed listen. Who cares if someone actually liked or didn't like the song? At least it had enough of an impact to land a comment. Maybe even some wanting to listen another song and then say another "Good job". If you can recognize the character of your music yourself and can name possible flaws then start thinking ways to make them better. Waiting for other people to give criticism can be a complete dead end. In your own music, you'll be doing the work, not the other people. They can give you pointers or hints that even they didn't take note to. It's up to you to decide what you'll be doing. And I don't really see what you're complaining about. You've got lots of comments on your "Stormcrow" that contain at least 20 words. And that's a lot. Be grateful.
GeneHilbert	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:51 PM That is what I always try to do. State an honest first impression opinion, and sometimes it's brutal. Like stated above - some do not respond well to any critical review regardless of content or motivation, be it from an experienced ear or novice. This I believe is unfortunate for their musical artistic growth and development. I even had one person tell me their mixing flaws and bad musicianship was the intended artistic statement. Yeah right..... sure it was. You get both sides of the coin Brother. Honesty or placation, and you as the artist must be the judge as too what the motivational intent is and of the personality of the reviewer.
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:51 PM I just take it as a confirmed listen. Exactly. In your own music, you'll be doing the work, not the other people. They can give you pointers or hints that even they didn't take note to. It's up to you to decide what you'll be doing. Of course, but without some of the critisism I got, I never could've developed as a musician. That applies to everyone. There's always someone who can give advice. Then, you'll end up separating the bad comments and good comments. And don't be a silly. In most cases you can still think something constructive to say about the track you listened.
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:53 PM And I don't really see what you're complaining about I'm not complaining about anything. That's why you don't see it. I asked a question.
BlackMage	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:57 PM "And don't be a silly. In most cases you can still think something constructive to say about the track you listened." But not all. There are still songs that pretty much leave me speechless. Be it good or bad. The good thing along with the bad thing about this place is that I'll never know what I'm going to hear next.
BlackMage	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:58 PM "I'm not complaining about anything. That's why you don't see it. I asked a question." My mistake.
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:02 PM But not all. There are still songs that pretty much leave me speechless. Be it good or bad. The good thing along with the bad thing about this place is that I'll never know what I'm going to hear next. Yes, I know what you mean. That doesn't still explain the one sentence comments.
ShadowMom	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:12 PM Not everyone at DMusic is a musician... case in point, me. I have a very basic understanding of music, but not enough to be critical of it. When I leave a comment, it is more to show that I did listen... not to do a critique of technique or style or even content. If I like a particular thing, I try to say so. But... I will not leave a derogatory comment regardless. If you don't like people simply enjoying your music, make it clear in the first comment on your tracks. Then they will know exactly what you want.
HenriRoger	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:12 PM I make a lot of one sentence comments Just saying the main thing I tink of what i heard . Also my english is "french" haha
kingo	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:13 PM It's like slapping yourself in the face to go around giving what you think is constructive criticism to songs by artists who may not want that. If you want honest critical comments on a song your best bet is probably to find people who you think can give you the kind of feedback you want and ask them for it specifically. Everyone isn't HERE for criticism, constructive or not. Some people just want a place for people to hear their songs. If you'd prefer no comments to the "HEY THIS ROX0RZ HUGS LOL" comments then maybe curse out the individuals who are posting that kind of comment. They probably won't comment again. And I'm waiting for your spew of cursing in my direction for my brief comment on "Stormcrow." Gene: maybe mixing flaws and poor musicianship WAS part of the intention. It's pretty hard to know that without being whoever said it. Regardless, you give some of the most useful recording/mixing/songwriting advice on the site, so the way I figure it even IF that was the person's intention then your criticism should just be considered reinforcement that they must've done a good job poorly mixing and playing.
kingo	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:14 PM -- :rofl:" id="234103">Henri: "Also my english is "french"" --
BlackMage	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:16 PM Obviously not everyone has time, skill or the energy to start analyzing a song. This is teh internets and not everyone can be arsed to start using their precious time (note the slight hint of sarcasm there) of their lives on the mostly anonymous and faceless information superhighway. Then there's the "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" -thing too. I've been involved in it in pretty much every aspect I can think of and the only thing I can really say is that it can be tough (in every aspect I can think of). Some people have big egos whether they, you or someone else likes (or is even conscious about it) it or not. There's no way in telling that. In the worst case scenario you'll get called an asshole for stating your own opinion (even if you did it in a respectful way) That's not my definition of fun. You can't really do anything about it. So there's the time-issue, effort-issue and the emotion-issue involved at least in commenting.
HenriRoger	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:18 PM voilà !!!
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:25 PM t's like slapping yourself in the face to go around giving what you think is constructive criticism to songs by artists who may not want that. If you want honest critical comments on a song your best bet is probably to find people who you think can give you the kind of feedback you want and ask them for it specifically. Everyone isn't HERE for criticism, constructive or not. Some people just want a place for people to hear their songs. I disagree. Whether you wanted it or not, you'll eventually have to face the truth and take the critical comments. Lying to yourself doesn't help anyone. If you'd prefer no comments to the "HEY THIS ROX0RZ HUGS LOL" comments then maybe curse out the individuals who are posting that kind of comment. They probably won't comment again. And I'm waiting for your spew of cursing in my direction for my brief comment on "Stormcrow." I'm not going to curse anyone for leaving me brief comments. Well, yes I'd prefer the critical comments, but I don't complain if I get the short ones. I still appreciate the listening.
HenriRoger	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:32 PM
perkie1973	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:48 PM "Those are not comments. They're meaningless phrases repeated over and over again. They're not very helpful either." I guess I'm guilty of the one liners....as you wish!!!
SimonWaldram	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:50 PM I pay people to give me good comments, how else do you think I get them? I give $10 for a "Cool song ", $15 for a "Dude, you rock!" and $25 for any comment that uses the words "awesome", "amazing", or makes use of the icon
GTOriginal	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:50 PM I agree with Sham 100% probably because I'm the author of the annoying DNote in question. In his suggestion lies the answer to this, the single biggest point of contention on DMusic, and the most ridiculous too IMHO... Communicate, already. Some artists have a goal of continued improvement, and wish to have their work ripped apart note by note and berated for the greater good of the work. I am definately NOT one of those. I am OK with true constructive comments, but by the time my stuff is posted here, it's done, and I'm looking to share it with the community and start the next one, not neccesarilly "fix" each item that may rub someone the wrong way. I would have given up on Song Number One if that were the case, and if saying so makes me a douche, so be it, there's worse jobs out there... When offering "constructive criticism" one can be a pure asshole, stating that something sucks without backing it up, or they can choose to be truly helpful. There is nothing constructive about generic remarks like "could be better", for example. Here on DMusic I have seen this issue taken to the level of shredding an artist's work merely to prove this point, and I think it is very sad... I listen, I enjoy. I have yet to achieve perfection in my own stuff and will never even try. I enjoy helpful remarks of both the negative and positive variety. Above all, I am here to have fun, not involve my tunes in a witch hunt for imperfections. Save everyone the trouble, they are all chock full of imperfections, and they can all be better too. My
K3VIN	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:57 PM i remember me and sham having a big talk about this...
BlackMage	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 6:17 PM Completely agreeing with Gary here. There's just a big bowl of individuals with all kinds of different functions, skills and personalities which are all subjects to change in time. It's like yelling at a forest "All the trees that are tall and of good quality - GET CHOPPED DOWN NOW and get carried to my truck which shall then transport you to be sold for profit. Thank you." Anyone can and will get listens and comments, but it's completely individual what the comments will be about and that's the spice of being in this kinda place where musicians and non-musicians alike meet. I hope I'm not being completely out of line with that forest comparison.
blubat	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 6:42 PM Since our music really sucked, like i mean its completely awful or started off awful, everyone still told us it rocked at home and on dmusic. It was kind of funny because it actually let us just have fun with it and do crazier and crazier shit it always seems like someone on Dmusic will actually like what you do no matter what it is. As for one liners as far as we are concerned a one liner means someone wasted at least 3 seconds of their life listening to a clip of our CRAPPY music and then was thoughtful enough to post a one liner. Fuck yeah, im happy.
GeneHilbert	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 6:53 PM That's Great LOL Everyone isn't HERE for criticism, constructive or not. This is true..... however, this is a vital part of any true music site (which we are - this is not myspace) and overall musical development. I certainly understand the novice approach. I love working with bonsai’s. But I would never think of entering a tree in a show or an exhibition without expecting a master to judge my work and point to my errors. When I was coming up - I was playing with pros on stage at the tender age of 14 and some of these cats were fuckin' brutal; none of this politically correct crap, direct and to the point. You had better have your shit together or get it together quick. Or on the next gig your ass would be in a chair listening or at home. The advice and response (pro or con) from your peers should be expected and I believe for the most part it is. Love it or hate it - it's a motivational learning mechanism and it's here to stay. I for one am appreciative of it…. " id="234131"> "someone wasted at least 3 seconds of their life listening to a clip of our CRAPPY music and then was thoughtful enough to post a one liner. Fuck yeah, im happy." That's Great LOL Everyone isn't HERE for criticism, constructive or not. This is true..... however, this is a vital part of any true music site (which we are - this is not myspace) and overall musical development. I certainly understand the novice approach. I love working with bonsai’s. But I would never think of entering a tree in a show or an exhibition without expecting a master to judge my work and point to my errors. When I was coming up - I was playing with pros on stage at the tender age of 14 and some of these cats were fuckin' brutal; none of this politically correct crap, direct and to the point. You had better have your shit together or get it together quick. Or on the next gig your ass would be in a chair listening or at home. The advice and response (pro or con) from your peers should be expected and I believe for the most part it is. Love it or hate it - it's a motivational learning mechanism and it's here to stay. I for one am appreciative of it….
hate9wicket	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 7:03 PM I enjoy... isn't that we're here for, fun, for the most part? I would say, which I think is the point of the thread, If you want every note weighed and measured, poked and prodded, make it be known...and if people leave the one liner shit on ya, give 'em a shout and say "yeah, but what do you reeeaaally think?"" id="234133">I like both constructive and pat-on-the-back comments. If it is a song that totally sucks, I'm more than likely already aware of that, but some people like bad music, so hopefully I fill a niche. That said, the best comments I've gotten here WERE the harshest and most honest. But I asked for it. I really don't know the changes I made were "improvements" but when you need a second pair of ears...there are tons and tons of helpful ones here. As far as my own listening and comment habits... I admit, I can be a bit of a glad-hander, but, usually I reserve comments for works I enjoy... isn't that we're here for, fun, for the most part? I would say, which I think is the point of the thread, If you want every note weighed and measured, poked and prodded, make it be known...and if people leave the one liner shit on ya, give 'em a shout and say "yeah, but what do you reeeaaally think?"
hantu	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 7:32 PM Oh this thread is gonna go on and on, just like before. "So, now you're afraid to be critical because some douche sent you a note?" I never said that stopped me from saying what i feel when i comment on music. I just don't waste my time with people that don't appreciate it, which i think is pretty luvly. Best thing to do is just chill out, if you get helpful comments - great! if not - o well! Its not like we don't get ANY contructive feedback and to be honest i am grateful for the small percent of people that do spend the time thinking about my "music". They're not getting paid. And then there is the matter of other people like: listeners and people like me that are not musicians at all and people that just suck with words and people that make amazingly shit music and they know it. Googly, have a drink
Distilled1	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 7:37 PM ... this is my most used in comments ..but I digres. If my comments are short as they are sometimes. It is because I love the tune. If I dont like it I normaly skip the listen and move on. I have tryed to critiqe songs and do at times. But ya I'm a glad hander When I can tell there is promise in the artist or song I sure do try and point them in the direction "I" think that they should go, but always with a positive keep at it. Then theres the times you just can't think of much to say, or you plan on critiqing later and never do.
GTOriginal	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 7:55 PM Never criticize until you can do better yourself - and even then be respectful about it. My opinion on Sham is that he is not a traditional musician in the sense of plays piano or whatever, but has killer tracks that did not arrange themselves. My opinion on K3VIN is that I am king douche of this thread and you can't have the title :trophy: (cool morphy avie btw)" id="234143">Jeez. Typing into a "Comments" thread is an excercise in pure futility: The Middle East Conflict Gun Control Abortion DMusic Comments So, here I am again Critical comments are only a helpful learning mechanism IF a bunch of things fall into place. 1) The person making the comments should know what the hell he or she is talking about. 2) The person being critiqued should welcome the criticism in the first place. 3) The two people should agree on what is said. 4) The artist should then decide to apply this newly acquired knowledge. Without all of these conditions, it's just some loser pretending to be Simon Cowell. Or, to put it in fortune cookie terms: Never criticize until you can do better yourself - and even then be respectful about it. My opinion on Sham is that he is not a traditional musician in the sense of plays piano or whatever, but has killer tracks that did not arrange themselves. My opinion on K3VIN is that I am king douche of this thread and you can't have the title (cool morphy avie btw)
victorsskull	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:17 PM people are honest about my worthless singing
imemine	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:20 PM Very nice thread! Have we covered this before?
hantu	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:21 PM lol have you asked that before?
imemine	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:26 PM Yes---have you?
hantu	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:27 PM Yes---have you?
perkie1973	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:40 PM
jack	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:51 PM Whoa! Where'd he go!?
Fraser	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 10:17 PM If I like the song, I say so. If I dont, I offer my opinion on what can be changed for the better.
Woof	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 10:58 PM GGM, I apologize for leaving such a comment on your song "Stormcrow". I believe it read something like: "Fantastic! Just bloody fantastic! Ladies and gentlemen, this is how it's done! " I really liked the song, and wanted to let you know you were appreciated. You can ask an Admin to delete the comment, and they'll do it for you.
hantu	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 11:00 PM awww shux, even i feel bad now Don't get it deleted.
GTOriginal	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 11:43 PM We can delete our own song comments these days. Well, maybe subscribers only (not sure about that).
hantu	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 11:46 PM Googly says he can't delete them
GTOriginal	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 11:53 PM Oops my mistake, subs only I guess. I'd delete that, but uh... I can't
hantu	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 11:58 PM rub rub rub
TameasDust	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 12:11 AM three men in a tub
GTOriginal	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 3:33 AM Critical review of the preceding post from TameusDust, by Gary Tucker. I find the omission of both uppercase characters and punctuation symbols to be offensive to the eye. The blatant use of a sentence fragment indicates a serious lack of education and focus. This should be corrected immediately. The refusal to use graphic emote icons may wash in some namby-pamby art community, but here in the real meat-and-potatoes world, forget about it. Plus, some readers may find the whole "three men in a tub" visual to be a bit disturbing on homophobic, germophobic, and claustrophobic levels. One saving grace is the fact that the reader's attention is somewhat deferred to your extremely cool spinning question mark avatar. With a little practice, perhaps a few lessons in writing form, punctuation, and grammar, I am certain that you will become a master forum thread poster. Dude, you rock.
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 4:05 AM GGM, I apologize for leaving such a comment on your song "Stormcrow". Like I said before: I'm not going to curse anyone for leaving me brief comments. (Razz) Well, yes I'd prefer the critical comments, but I don't complain if I get the short ones. I still appreciate the listening. When offering "constructive criticism" one can be a pure asshole, stating that something sucks without backing it up, or they can choose to be truly helpful. It's not about being asshole or insulting people, y'know? It's about being helpful. For example, there are some good vocalists on the site. These people can give very good advice and critisism to the vocalists that might not be as skilled as them. This way they offer fellow artists a way to develop. Even if it was a hobby, who wouldn't want to get better at it? You don't have to be a virtuoso of your instrument to offer advice. [i]There is nothing constructive about generic remarks like "could be better", for example. Here on DMusic I have seen this issue taken to the level of shredding an artist's work merely to prove this point, and I think it is very sad...\|/i] You're absolutely right. Then again, there's nothing constructive in "good song" comments either. What makes them better? Maybe the fact that everyone wants to hear them. Now, I'm not saying it's wrong or a bad thing to post these kind of comments. Because sometimes, like BlackMage said, you can't think anything constructive to say. Please, don't make this personal and ask me to delete your comments on my songs. That's just childish.
kingo	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 8:31 AM It's either childish or funny, depending on who says it. And in this case you can probably assume it's funny. Additionally, it makes a point: if there's nothing the listener thinks you should do to improve the song, what's he or she supposed to say in the comment?
EvilPicnic	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 8:33 AM I always try to be critical, to say what I really think, because there's no point in making an insincere comment that you don't mean. Kissing arse doesn't help the artist concerned, and I didn't join this site to get a brown nose. Sometimes, though, you have to accept a track for what it is, and all you can say is whether you liked it or not. I find it's often the (perceived) imperfections or bits I don't understand which endear me to a track. In that situation all I can say is that I appreciated it. GGM, I havn't commented on Stormcrow yet (I heard it a while ago) because I havn't yet come up with something worthwhile to say which isn't just, 'Damn, your technique is pretty fucking good' because I think you know that already, and I can't see the value in me just repeating it.
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 9:37 AM if there's nothing the listener thinks you should do to improve the song, what's he or she supposed to say in the comment? "You're a god. Let me kiss your ass." I like that one. Seriously though, say what you think. Be honest. If there's nothing that you can't critisise then there's nothing you can do about that. At least you've tried. GGM, I havn't commented on Stormcrow yet (I heard it a while ago) because I havn't yet come up with something worthwhile to say which isn't just, 'Damn, your technique is pretty fucking good' because I think you know that already, and I can't see the value in me just repeating it. Yes, I think that's a good idea. There's no point to comment, if you don't have anything to say.
AbortiveMind	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 9:51 AM thread ?!? " id="234321">A: And I don't really see what you're complaining about B: I'm not complaining about anything. That's why you don't see it. I asked a question. Isn't this the "COMPLAINT" thread ?!?
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 9:53 AM Smartass.
TameasDust	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 10:24 AM ok .. I comment on your tune ... should i listen to it too ?
zedsalt	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 10:46 AM First off, the misspelling of "criticism" threw me off. Then you failed to put quotation marks around what was supposed to be an example of...oh wait! I see now; you wanted more critical comments on your SONGS... I can do that.
TameasDust	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 11:07 AM @ GTO
8111	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 11:36 AM personally I feel awfully presumptuous to offer too much criticism on someones art. For instance, someones guitar sounds like it was recorded up a cows ass, and guitarist himself plays like he's drunk. For all I know he/she MEANT to sound that way. If someone respects my opinion and asks me directly for my perspective on their work, thats another story, I'll be glad to share what I know. The most important thing to me is the power of the song. There's credit to be had for technical skills, production values, arrangement quality, etc., but the overall feeling I get while listening to someones work, and the feeling I'm left with afterwards are of number one importance to me. So If I DO say something like "I really like this song", I hope you don't take it the wrong way.
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 11:40 AM First off, the misspelling of "criticism" threw me off. Then you failed to put quotation marks around what was supposed to be an example of... You know it was meant to be like that. Just like the bad production and mistakes on playing.
imemine	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 11:42 AM Bill- I really wish that you wouldn’t talk about me in public like this. I’ve told you, I dig the “up a cows ass” sound and the drinking, I’m working on that.
sinai	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 11:45 AM at 11:30 in the morning? yer gonna need more than 12 steps to fix a -lism like that
8111	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 11:56 AM
imemine	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 12:06 PM ....AND NOW YOU'RE LAUGING AT ME?
8111	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 12:11 PM yes
imemine	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 12:12 PM Look---I’m SO distraught that I spelled “laughing” wrong!
TameasDust	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 12:16 PM that can be fixed ... bend over ... this WILL hurt ...
8111	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 12:19 PM Ime...I think he's asking you to take it like a man...
8111	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 12:20 PM oops...i mean...shit! sorry
TameasDust	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 12:22 PM ok I listened to your tune ... since I commented before I listened to it should I comment again
TameasDust	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 12:23 PM @Bill
imemine	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 12:28 PM Is that how you see men taking it Bill?
sinai	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 1:36 PM the better man gives a little back though... it's in your reach ime
BOWILLIE	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 2:02 PM what does giving back curtail? backing up on it?
sinai	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 2:03 PM juss doing a little handiwork on the side
theblacklodge	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 2:23 PM Loooooooong post warning!!! "[i]There is nothing constructive about generic remarks like "could be better", for example. Here on DMusic I have seen this issue taken to the level of shredding an artist's work merely to prove this point, and I think it is very sad...\|/i] You're absolutely right. Then again, there's nothing constructive in "good song" comments either. What makes them better?" There is a difference, I feel. If you aim to give a, as you define it, constructive, critical review of someone's song you will stumble upon details and then try to analyse them, piece by piece. You get into things like: "the guitarsolo around 1:00 has this and that quality to it that I like, but I wish this and that would also happen, or you could possibly do this and that to it, which might be even more interesting". And so it could continue for keys, drums, production (f i), vocals, backing vocals.. you name it, as much as you have time for. But saying all of that, I think there is a difference between getting into the details like I just illustrated, and talking about how the song made you feel. Because, I believe music is first of all emotion, then thought, then structure. It goes to the heart and not to the brain at first, as someone once put it. This means that there's a big difference between talking in the, to you desirable constructive language about guitar, drums, mix and so on, and how to talk about the song as a whole piece of music... You reach this point for instance: "So, after analysing all of these details, This is a... song" A 'what' song?? You see, I don't think there is a natural connection between analytically putting the pieces apart and then reaching a final conclusion in how you feel about the song. It's not like an "interesting 80's guitar solo" and an "overall powerful production" always leads to a certain="so, that means this song is a Great song" In fact, they don't have a connection like that at all, so when you have to give your final overall statement about a song, you're stuck with a whole different task, no matter how much into detail you went about the bass or whatever. THAT is, for me the reason behind why you can look at seemingly very constructive comments that go on and on and on to then reach a point where the reviewer just sais something like: "so, all in all this song had a pathetic arrangement and was a sort of, bad, unsettling listen." I am saying it's an illusion to think that a long constructive analysis gives some kind of extra wheight behind a final judgement that is: "this song sucks" The person who comments may show that he/she has listened a lot to the song by giving that long analysis at first, which is of course really nice, and if you made a song with the purpouse of putting that big ass organ solo in there, and letting the rest of the song just support that part, then of course you'll want to hear about the organ solo. But you're gonna have to face that there will be a lot of listeners who don't listen to the song like that, and it's not that they are too lazy, tasteless or something else, to give you what you want to get criticised. You may 'think' that all of the constructive talk before a simple conclusion logically leads up to the "all in all" part. But I don't think it works like that, I think that you then have to give a comment that is just as good as the "wow, this song is something I really love, with its dark powerful mood and unsettling emotion". Yes, the "good song, " is vague, but the point I am trying to make is that there is a difference between analytically reviewing parts of a song, and communicating to the artist how the song made you feel. You can even go to sub parts that you have divided logically, and end up with the same problem.. What exactly makes it natural that "the interesting 80's guitar solo and the somewhat repeatedly droning but still powerful layered guitars" are all in all "fairly good guitar arrangments"?? The answer is nothing because the overall is not the result of an equation where you can logically balance a "little of this, with a little of that" and then reach the logical "end result". "So, you can't say anything??" You may ask, and of course you can! Talking about details out of your own subjective opinion about the execution of the 80's guitar solo, can be very helpful when you want to make other 80's guitar solos, because you learn the different tastes about aspects of playing that solo that make you a little bit surer about yourself and what exactly you accomplish when you play.. In terms of 80's guitar solos, not in terms of a whole song. So, I've been going on and on about this now, but my overall point is, yes, constructive, analytical comments can be great as well as really helpful and if you feel you have an opinion on an 80's guitar solo, fun to make as well.... BUT, a longwinded constructive detail analysis followed by: "so all in all, this song is pretty bad", can do damage if it give the illusion that the long long talk before that conclusion made that final statement 'better' than the above comment which said: "I really enjoyed this song. A lot actually! powerful stuff!" That is in a way the answer to the question I quoted waaay up there in the beginning somewhere When a person tells you how they 'feel' when they hear a song communicates something to you, that is different from the analytical talk about an 80's guitar solo. Don't get me wrong I love constructive longwinded comments and I love trying to give them, but it's not because people are 'slackers' that they don't give a lot of very long, analytical comments. As for the 'critical' part, in the sense saying you don't like the song, I think that is because people like to comment on what they like, period. Thanks for spending the afternoon reading out
BOWILLIE	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 2:28 PM
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 3:00 PM Well, I usually try to have both the analytical side and then the "what I felt" side on my comments. When I listen the song first time, it triggers my emotions and I write about them. Then on the second time I try to analyze it and find different aspects. I think both of them are equally important.
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 3:01 PM Yeah, and thanks for bringing new opinions into this conversation.
LostYears	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 3:42 PM anyone seen the irony of this thread.... hes complaining that people arent complaining about his music, well not exactly but i made use of artistic license -(be critical, be very critical )
jewsus	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 4:36 PM i love the critical comments, they're much more useful. unfortunately most of my comments i get revolve around the shitty quality of the songs. which i can't help cos i have shitty recording equipment. but still, i enjoy some good blunt feedback.
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 4:37 PM hes complaining that people arent complaining about his music Quite so.
BlackMage	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 4:43 PM Oh, so now you are complaining?
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 4:49 PM Apparently, I have to, because this is the "Complaints" forum.
EvilPicnic	Date: July 15, 2006 @ 7:06 PM ^^ si
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 1:39 AM If you believe psychologists you should start with a positive, end with a positive and feed your critical comments in the middle as objectively as possible, such as 'your vocals sound too echoey', or 'mix the bassline a little hotter' etc - no 'this sucks' etc. You can't have it all ways - either we are nice and respectful and try to place some positives (a little critical feedback is great in addition) or we resort to the 'battles' mentality of other sites like 'yo dude you suck a$$'. What I tend to do is comment on specific things such as mixing, eqing, tone etc if I make a critical comment but place encouragement with it. If I really don't like a song or anything about it, I do as my parents taught me - 'If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything'
AbortiveMind	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 2:59 AM Oh man !! This thread still ain't closed Come on You bitching people must have alot of other things to complain about ...
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 3:57 AM Oh man !! This thread still ain't closed Why should it be closed?
TameasDust	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 6:29 AM dunno
AbortiveMind	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 7:44 AM I know Just accept the fact that some people prefer only the good aspects of comments and some like more critical comments. And when it comes to the commenting self: some prefer posting an extended comment some just prefer expressing the feeling the track evokes with emotes *some others just prefer posting nothing and just stream the friggin track. Anyways, that's my opinion... plus it has been said several times but with other words
GTOriginal	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 8:12 AM And, it will be said several more times with more words, because it is an unresolvable DMusic conflict. My personal take is that I don't really benefit from dissection (good or bad) but I in the past have sounded off when people are hostile or disrespectful about it (now I just delete the bullshit and move on). If they kiss my ass and glad handle my tunes I tend to roll my eyes, but that doesn't really happen a lot... Believe it or not, it is possible to actually like something you hear. I do it all the time, and I say so, only to be placed in the "ass kisser" category. On those very rare times I hit some nasty thing like bad musicianship or out of tune instruments, I tell the person in a respectful way, usually thru a DNote. Bottom Line? One can criticize without being an asshole. One can compliment without being a suck-up. This whole topic is ridiculous because we all have our own way of doing things. It has been fun people. Gary
zedsalt	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 10:43 AM Y'know, after reading that the little spelling and puncuation errors were intentionally included/left in, I can really see how they lend a kind of everymanish charm to the post, and on second reading, I have to say that I really enjoyed it.
Rodrica	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 11:41 AM So... If people like your song they shouldn't be allowed to say so? Isn't that like putting up "no applause" signs in front of your audience? I apologise to any artist who has been offended by my positive comments on their music. Sorry for enjoying it so much.
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 12:10 PM [i]If people like your song they shouldn't be allowed to say so?]/i] No, obviously that's not the point.
Rodrica	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 12:19 PM The point is you, personally, want postive AND negative comments. If I find no negative aspects in a song (in my opinion), then I won't invent them. I also prefer only to get into criticisms and in-depth analysis if I've been specifically invited. And then I prefer to discuss things at length on note to ensure that I understand what the artist is trying to achieve. No point in imposing my own ideas on someone else's creations without the full story...that would be presumptuous.
leflaw	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 1:38 PM maybe he should start a section called "if you had to criticise this song, what That be?"
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 2:49 PM That's a brilliant idea leflaw. Thanks!
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 2:54 PM That's a brilliant idea leflaw. Thanks!
deerok	Date: July 16, 2006 @ 4:39 PM i take what i can get and i'm happy about it...i used to use the sight for validation/criticism from others within the community but it was hard...worth it in some respects but hard nonetheless...(and now that my laptop was stolen, it's even harder since i can't post any new stuff)... when it all comes down to it - how much feedback do you need from an online community...i'm finding lately that it has been a critical step in getting me out and playing but now that i have a live crowd, it's easier to get a feel for what's working and what isn't... with that said - having the perceived anonymity of the internet does make it easier to bring songs to real live people...and regardless of what is said, i find it encouraging, if not always helpful. cheers, d
plungerboy	Date: August 7, 2006 @ 5:35 PM Old thread. But i gotta add on to it. I feel that as musicians it is our prerogative to give our fellow musicians an honest opinion. I like it when people say what they like and dont like about a song. We shouldnt go and change our songs, if you go back and try to fix it your defeating the point, which is the feeling that inspired the song. Some songs do suck, because some feelings suck, and as musicians we should try and keep that in perspective. Things id like to hear are: good production nice tune/melody/whatever i like the lfo on the filter etc etc there is feeling in this song great effort, but... the transients are killing me the bassline sucks/whatever your guitar is outta tune learn to sing try something different(although i doubt i will get this one) Part of the reason why i joined dmusic is because i was hoping to get objective perspective from experienced musicians, and to learn from them. I think though that most people who don't like a song simply dont comment at all, which is not what we want. If i was dmusic, i would pop up the comment box for a song while it's being streamed.So that people get both the song and the comment box in their face. Furthermore, i think from now on my music is no longer free for members. If your gonna listen, its gonna cost you a comment. You as musicians should know the time that it takes to make a good song, and therefore your emotions get all caught up in it. In essence, music is a part of you that your giving away, but that doesnt mean you should defend it. I'd also like it if nonmembers could also comment. Im hoping that whoever reads this thread will take it seriously, and start commenting. Ive given ugly comments, i hated giving them, but they were honest peace
kingo	Date: August 7, 2006 @ 5:50 PM
BOWILLIE	Date: August 7, 2006 @ 5:52 PM wait for the money to pour in
GTOriginal	Date: August 7, 2006 @ 8:21 PM If you want to be honest, that's fine. But if the song sucks, why be compelled to tell the entire community rather than the artist? Isn't that a bit crass and unfair?? And why pray tell does the cult mentality of DMusic demand that you refer to these type of scathing & nasty comments as "constructive"??? ????????????? Best analogy I can make is when you are walking past a nursing home, and you see a guy about to drop dead any second, and say "Look at him, he's 98 years young". Let's face the fact that there are bad tunes out there (I have almost 100) and in my view, "constructive" criticism is handled in a positive manner, thru a note, in private. I always appreciate those. Ripping the song apart in the comment section (and possibly turning future listeners away in the bargain) is juvenile and destructive, the equivalent of pulling out a megaphone in a resturant and yelling "Hey George, you forgot to zip your fly!"
hantu	Date: August 7, 2006 @ 9:57 PM ---

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