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Harbinger Of Bad News

GeneHilbert	Date: November 6, 2006 @ 8:51 PM I really hate to be the harbinger of bad news here. However since the upgrade - the whole site has been a mess, people are dying needlessly everywhere around the world, the U.N. is an American bashing shit-hole of incompetence, files are failing to upload & stream. The whole site is a bog of re-clicking links, buffer under-runs and having to log in every damn day. It’s a damn mess. Dmusic is becoming a republican sponsor of what is vastly becoming a religious over throw of what the net stands for – stagnancy, decay and damn right wing policy of time wasting ineptitude. Call me a democratic doomsayer, but I believe we should get out and return to the old status quo. Where good enough was perfect, and with sand on or over your head, we were all content and happy – or at least with enough pot and tequila, no one cared.
Alstroph	Date: November 6, 2006 @ 9:15 PM I assure you Gene that the coders are working vigorously to fix and bugs that the site has. It's going to be a slow ride... but in the end it will be worth it. Just have patience.
ShadowMom	Date: November 6, 2006 @ 11:01 PM Okay, Gene... you're a democratic doomsayer. Feel better now! Oh, and I do subscribe to the theory that it's perfectly okay to kill the messenger. Ahem....
imemine	Date: November 6, 2006 @ 11:04 PM Gene---- you didn't call that gay hooker again did you?
BlackMage	Date: November 7, 2006 @ 4:54 AM Actually I'd love to get back to the year 2003 in DM, but it just ain't gonna happen.
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 7, 2006 @ 5:03 AM the U.N. is an American bashing shit-hole of incompetence??? not looking for an argument... but... dont drag the UN into the site's problems. they're both fucked up enough already. and for the record, i think your comment on the UN is half right... that's 49% if you are an electronic voting machine
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 7, 2006 @ 5:04 AM (its also like saying could we go back to the days under Churchill and Roosevelt...)
Bluenevus	Date: November 7, 2006 @ 5:27 AM Gene you make some really good points. We all like things that are good. Good food, good music, good people and in this case a good site. What is the enemy of good? Its not evil... The enemy of good is perfection. Sometimes in the quest to make something good...great we loose everything. Take a look at history, this story has been told many times and you will see the fall of people, businesses and empires in this quest. Sure, change is inevitable and probably needed here but the product is not ready for primetime. Don't get me wrong. I think your developers have done a nice job for and alpha site. I do software project management for a living. Lets be honest, this is not even a beta site. Beta products at least deliver core functionality of the business. If your core business model is to provide streaming music and your site fails to do so, than your upgrade has done nothing to support your vision, the business and more importantly, your customers. We have seen an exedous of some good people and I've been told by them, it is because the site fails to support what the customer wants...music. Don't make the mistake of thinking this is an issue of loyalty. What it boils down to is beautiful form but little core functionality. All the eye candy in the world does not change the fact uploading music fails. Maybe we don't need a great site, at this point we don't even need a good site. What we need is a functioning site. Take a look at the Capability Maturity Model (Wiki it) closely. No offense, but you are at level one. I constantly read messages of rapid feats to get the site working. Its probably time to re-evaluate and re-prioritize. Just my 2 cents.
jack	Date: November 7, 2006 @ 6:07 AM I absolutely cannot fix uploading if I cannot reproduce these problems myself. Do you think I would release a half-finished product? I expected there to be bugs but when we decided to launch the redesign everything -was- working, with the exception of a few things we knew would be broken until it was on the right server. I am in full-time education as well as DMusic, so I physically don't have time to go over ever nook and cranny of the site and work out how these problems are happening myself - that's not my job. If you're going to make a bug report, don't simply say "Jack, file uploading isn't working." - what browser are you using? How big is the MP3 file? Does it fail completely or does it ask you to 'fix' the file?
Bluenevus	Date: November 7, 2006 @ 6:33 AM No one is blaming you Jack. No one is blaming your developers. Don't take it personal. Like I said, the site looks nice and I think you and the team did a nice job. But like I said, alpha product. It has a lot of potential to be a great beta product when core functionality is achieved. What is it subscribers are paying for? If it is to upload their music, have it stream then that is what needs to be delivered. I got a file to upload and work (hi fi only) by following shadowmom's instructions. Its not about nook and cranny, its about the big things...music. If the id3 tag function didn't work for a while...who cares. The point is it doesn't affect the core reason we are here. But I'm telling everyone here Shadowmom's workaround is not tolerable and lo fi still doesn't work. The fact that there is a workaroun on a major function makes it an alpha... Dude, there is nothing wrong with alpha products. There is nothing wrong about betas and release controls. There is something wrong when they are released without it advertised as an alpha, beta or RC. It sets expectations. As part of any regression testing, previous core and basic functionality is ensured. The fact it doesn't work means there is a problem with the testing and evaluation process. Maybe there is a problem with the release process. Maybe there is a problem with the development cycle. The point is not see there is a problem is a problem. There is a problem thus the start of this thread among many others. Dude I've been there coding. I know how close I get to my product. When someone complains about my product, it seems like their complaining about me. ITS NOT ABOUT YOU, your skills or the skills of the development effort I'm saying there is an issue about software development lifcycle management. If you need specifics about bugs, then the team should consider fields about specifics like that. Most consumers won't know to tell you about their browser, Mp3 file size, fail completely. This is part of the software development cycle management. Believe me, I believe your product will be a good product and no doubt you have skills but, its not working today and hasn't been for a while. I'm not talking about the nook and cranny, I'm talking about big things.
jack	Date: November 7, 2006 @ 8:22 AM I'm not saying anyone was blaming me Blue. I agree with you 100%. I was addressing an earlier point Gene raised about the file manager not working, and also the fact that when we decided to release it, both the file uploading process and the lo-fi streams were working, otherwise we wouldn't have released it, you know? My nook and cranny comment was about looking how to reproduce the bug in question. If I spent the time I use looking how to reproduce a bug on actually fixing it, things might be a little further along. I am aware there are several major functions of the site that aren't working for most people right now. Things that definitely were working before release and should be working right now - unfortunately, no amount of testing can prepare for this, especially since we basically rewrote the entire site. Anyway, just to clear up. We're working as hard as we can on it. People are entitled to be disappointed and even upset at the whole thing and I fully appreciate why that would be so.
HenriRoger	Date: November 7, 2006 @ 8:40 AM I think there is a priority here : don't loose more nice people . I'm not saying they are right to leave the site , they just did for different reasons . If music is the purpose it has to work . I like the new design ,i'm surprised very few people use the bio images profile journal as it's a good way to promote music too. It takes some time to work them out but it's worth it . I'm optimist about this place
Bluenevus	Date: November 7, 2006 @ 9:06 AM Jack, You make some good points. But... Sometimes organizations take a step back to make 2 steps forward. That is, maybe even stop and re-asses the situation then make informed decisions about the way forward to preserve the core business. Its a sacrafice they are willing to make to achieve the vision and improve the mission. Maybe the step back is the current loss of core functionality as a trade off for bennies such as bio images. But as Henri mentions, its not being used heavily today, its not why people are here. Maybe the step back is the performance issue and like Henri says, it will be worth it in the end. I'm sure it will be really nice in the end. I'm still here because of it as good people like Gene, Henri, Chilly, Shadowmom etc However, I think Gene's point is well taken too. Maybe the step back to be considered is reverting (roll back) to the old site to make a good leap forward when core functionality is working. Look, I know you cannot test for everthing and bugs are to be expected. However, good testing evaluation in software development cycle accounts for major bugs that affect what customers really are paying for. I'm gonna be honest, not streaming music for DMUSIC is like MS Word not being a word editor. MS or any other company would never release a word editor that doesn't edit words or release fixes that break the ability for Word to edit word. They would never sell another copy. Loyal MS word lovers or not, if they can't edit word, customers in need switch to OpenOffice or the like. I'm not saying you should revert (roll back) to the old site. I'm not saying the as-is situation is the right answer either. I'm talking about the process. I'm saying Dmusic needs to invest in the process of Software Lifecycle Mangement to minimize risk and maximize gains. It just makes good business sense. I'm still here today, and I'll still be here tomorrow bro!
ShadowMom	Date: November 7, 2006 @ 12:13 PM Damn, Gene! Next time hit that JK button, would you?
DeadraveN	Date: November 15, 2006 @ 12:15 PM Gene never answered Ime's question.
GTOriginal	Date: November 15, 2006 @ 7:03 PM On 7th Nov 2009, BlackMage said: Actually I'd love to get back to the year 2003 in DM, but it just ain't gonna happen. OR the year 2002 ( I was on IUMA & my tunes got played there every day hehe )
GeneHilbert	Date: November 16, 2006 @ 1:33 AM Hit what? When? Where? Oh Meme.... In response…... Dude....! It hurts me to shit applesauce...... The site has been a damn mess… It’s been just today that I’ve seen anything close to what I have become accustom. So in that regard, I see progress, and that, my friend’s is a good thing. There is however much more to do……. So quit reading this crap and get back to work……..
Snoogans775	Date: November 16, 2006 @ 11:12 PM well, as far as jack is concerned, I think he doesn't wast to fix the streaming to give it that "harware.cliche" stutter.
Rodrica	Date: November 17, 2006 @ 4:38 AM I would agree with Blue regarding basic funtionality. I like the new design, the features and all the efforts made to keep DM top of the tree. But for various reasons we just aren't functioning at present. To maintain current membership, encourage new subscribers, advertisers and investors it's essential that the pages load quickly, the site is user friendly (to both visitors and members) and that basic things like music streaming work without any problems. Maybe we could concentrate more on essentials - the bells and whistles can wait. I have noticed a drop in activity here...and I've spent some considerable time persuading ppl not to leave/spend less time here. No amount of features, competitions etc. can be a substitute for a reliable, functioning site. My concern is also about compatability. I have provided full details of any problems I'm having regarding site usage. But in all cases my own software/hardware has been blamed. Whilst I accept there may be an element of that, I have been unable to reproduce these problems on any other music site, and experienced no problems pre redesign. I use standard and very popular mp3 encoders, browsers and computers. If I experience problems here then there is always the possibility that something in the DM system needs more testing. I cannot continue to keep changing my set-up just to suit DM. At least I have raised the problem...some ppl are simply leaving the site instead. Would it be impossible to roll back to the old site? We are surely at a stage where we need a quick fix. Would this create too many technical problems? Or maybe the old version was just not cost-efficient enough. The old site was working virtually perfectly. Can we not roll back then introduce changes in a several stage, slower and more measured way? We have our own niche market. We would do far better to build on that rather than worrying about the temporary success and somewhat different objectives of other music/interactive sites. Survival is all about being different AND reliable.
EchoMinor	Date: November 17, 2006 @ 6:56 AM i agree with her saddly that we need a quick fix, while i love the new look it seems to be in utter chaos with how it functions.
ShadowMom	Date: November 17, 2006 @ 8:56 AM These are growing pains... and they're part of life. If we don't change, we become stagnant. And we needed the room to grow. I was testing the new site with other admins for a couple of months before it was actually implemented. I found bugs, Jack and Buzz fixed them. I found more bugs, they fixed them. And I have to tell you, except for the things that could not be tested there, when this redesign was plugged in so to speak, I was very comfortable with it. It worked. I used to chat with you, post in the forums, everything we do every day... and it worked. You saw no difference because there weren't any problems. In theory, it was ready. Now we are finding some other problems, the server being the main one. That has nothing to do with the redesign, as far as I know. All of us have lists of things that aren't working properly, and things you'd like to see incorporated into the site, but there are only so many hours in a day. Please be patient. And realize that we do not read minds. When you have a problem, we need details. Saying it doesn't work... doesn't work. And yes, Rodrica... if you are the only person reporting a problem, and we cannot reproduce it... it's going to take longer to resolve. But we haven't forgotten you. I try to keep you updated on problems, fixes, and new features in my own journal, plus news stories are posted, forum threads are created, and we all do our best to keep you informed. I hope you will continue to bear with us. I've seen many web sites completely shut down for redesign. We are at least functioning, and that's important, because this is a true community, not simply a group of individuals with one thing-- music-- in common. Patience and respect will get us through this rough patch.
ShadowMom	Date: November 17, 2006 @ 9:00 AM Okay, everybody, now take out your lighters and let's sing a rousing chorus of "Kumbaya" -- I'm sure that'll just make Gene's day!
GeneHilbert	Date: November 17, 2006 @ 10:14 AM Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya; Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya;
ShadowMom	Date: November 17, 2006 @ 10:27 AM
DeadraveN	Date: November 17, 2006 @ 11:44 AM am I too late for the singing? I like singing: "KUMBAYA..."..
TameasDust	Date: November 17, 2006 @ 12:43 PM Coders work better if fed ... SEND FOOD
zedsalt	Date: November 18, 2006 @ 10:36 AM Oh, fer Pete's sake! Someone forgot to feed the coders?!? Come on, everyone knows they're not like farm cats; if you don't feed them, they don't just go out and forage for themselves! No wonder all the song titles and stream, download, etc. buttons have been stacked up on each other for the past few days! Get them some coder kibble stat, and none of this Old Roy or Special Kitty stuff, either, please and thank you.
DrowningBetty	Date: November 23, 2006 @ 11:38 PM personally we are going to either need a rollback to the more stable format or else i can see suscription numbers falling... i cant afford to pay for something that doesnt function.
Jazzmary2U	Date: November 24, 2006 @ 11:09 AM I am at work, where we have hi-speed connections and the latest IE.. we have over 900 computers on this system, and my music page is coming up blank.. definitely not good
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 24, 2006 @ 12:20 PM probably a filter / web blocker in action, I cannot log in using my password, I can only view as a guest thanks to "Bess" the board's proxy server blocker, Bess is no fun in spite of being a big shaggy dog with a floppy tongue, she even blocks out disney.com as 'access forbidden - frivolous entertainment pages.' if they have java script or mime object blocking that could also be causing this issue... btw - using IE, totally bad business decision. We used to use IE on Macs and PCs and now only use Safari on macs and Firefox on PCs. The tech guy has a knipschen if anyone even mentions IE due to hackers bringing down all the PCs (about 70% of the network, or several thousand computers) twice last year, our board refused to renew it's license with Microsoft for several products although they did of course renew Microsoft Office (sigh...)
Opossum	Date: November 24, 2006 @ 11:32 PM Every now and then, my hotmail doesn't work through Firefox and this "warning" comes up (from Microsoft) that I'm not using IE, going on about how you should ONLY use IE as a browser to display web pages properly (yeah, right). I'm unable to delete e-mails/spam or do much of anything when that happens, but only on the hotmail pages. But what's really strange is that it only happens now and then. Like maybe 1 out of 6-8 times I check hotmail(with Firefox). I suspect that it may have something to do with blocking certain advertisers with my hosts file. Sorry for going off-topic a bit.
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 25, 2006 @ 12:10 AM I used to get that too with hotmail and firefox but it doesn't happen anymore, actually since FF 1.5, it's great to not have to use IE for Hotmail. I have most ad/cookie blocking etc set in my firewall. privacy and browser settings too, it just went away one day after always warning me only to use IE. You can also use Opera, if it gives you any problems, Opera can identify itself as IE if you change a preference setting which is sneaky but useful !!
GeneHilbert	Date: November 25, 2006 @ 11:58 AM The music page looks OK today. So I’m assuming it’s being worked on....... Let's see what tomorrow brings....
imemine	Date: November 25, 2006 @ 1:03 PM I think that Gene’s initial comment MIGHT have been a bit of satire!
GeneHilbert	Date: November 25, 2006 @ 4:21 PM Ya Think........?
ShadowMom	Date: November 25, 2006 @ 5:23 PM Nahhhh......
imemine	Date: November 25, 2006 @ 5:33 PM ....and look what you did!
ShadowMom	Date: November 25, 2006 @ 5:47 PM ? Me??
Jazzmary2U	Date: November 26, 2006 @ 11:00 AM ;S
GeneHilbert	Date: November 27, 2006 @ 10:15 AM But the fact remains - the music page is still a mess.......
zedsalt	Date: November 27, 2006 @ 11:01 AM That is, without question, THE problem the site is having. I find the redesign double-bagger ugly and needlessly, redundantly complicated, but for those several days when it was functioning, we were far from a crisis situation. Thankfully, DM has at least one good coder really tearing into the problem, from the sound of things. There have been a few suggestions that we return to the old format, but I'm a little leary of that idea. Just about everybody who has used the internet for more than a few weeks HATES these redesigns. They almost always involve some kind of bassackwards "let's make 'em click through for things they used get all on one page" sillyness to artificially inflate their numbers and increase ad revenue. You'll notice that the exodus here started BEFORE the redesign was actually implemented. The mere IDEA of a redesign was enough to make a lot of folks head for the hills. If this...if any...site was to return to a previous design at the request of its users, it would be HUGE news. Every publication and website that has ever seen fit to talk about music and/or the internet would want to spread the word. DMusic would be SWAMPED. And how could we let everyone who has left know DM has reverted to the old design without this happening? I'm afraid we're kind of stuck with what we've got, and once the music pages have been fixed, that won't be such a bad situation, relatively speaking.
DeadraveN	Date: November 27, 2006 @ 12:41 PM this is one of those strange situations where i disagree with Zed. For all those who think the redesign is terrible, hard to navigate, ugly, (etc. etc. etc.) even noticed that the only ones complaining about it are the people who were here before,... the people who were accustomed to the 'old way'..? hell, I thought this site (the old version)was hard to navigate when I first got here, but only because it was new to me. I think the problem here isn't so much the site, but just the old users being so unwilling to accept change. (though, obviously, the lack of functioning music pages on IE is a HUGE problem)I was here before, I was used to it, I had to learn my way around the new site, but it really isn't any harder to navigate, there's not really much more clicking.. it's just different. get with the times, roll with the changes. The site is still everything it was before. (again, that's making an exception for the IE/music page problem at the moment).
kingo	Date: November 27, 2006 @ 1:35 PM And you have to also remember that there didn't used to be a "Special Forum" clogging up the works. And threads with more than one page could be accessed from the "recent activity" list, which now they can't.
DeadraveN	Date: November 27, 2006 @ 4:03 PM yeah, there've been a few threads now about that special forum thingy.. from what I gather it's a very temporary situation, but not temporary enough! grr.. and I didn't know about the other thing you mentioned.. I've never tried to access anything that way
kingo	Date: November 27, 2006 @ 5:11 PM I only ever access anything that way. I'm curious to know what the breakdown is of people checking forums that way vs. the other way.
Opossum	Date: November 27, 2006 @ 11:35 PM "Recent Forum Activity" is the only way for me, especially when you check fairly often.
TameasDust	Date: November 28, 2006 @ 1:55 AM Que
zedsalt	Date: November 28, 2006 @ 10:54 AM "...even noticed [I assume he means "ever notice"] that the only ones complaining about it are the people who were here before,... the people who were accustomed to the 'old way'..?" What possible reason would anyone else have for commenting on the situation?!? The vast majority of artists are never even going to click on the "Forum" tab. The vast majority of new visitors aren't going to get past the "Overview" page. Among new visitors, only those fortunate enough to be seeking out an artist who had the sense to request that his/her/their music page open first are even aware of the problem. "hell, I thought this site (the old version)was hard to navigate when I first got here, but only because it was new to me." See, that's a pretty major difference in our experiences. I already had material up on IUMA and Soundclick before I heard about DMusic, and the main reason I started posting music here was the simpler, more direct interface (especially the idea of the URL being "artist.site.com", as opposed to "site.com/artist" and the fact that all of the music, in the artist's preferred order appeared FIRST). Many of the reasons I stuck around are gone, at least for the time being. The biggest reason, of course, was to make my music available to more than a tiny group of people. The idea that it's somehow the listeners' fault that they can't access most of the music here is willful ignorance taken to a bizarre degree.
jack	Date: November 28, 2006 @ 9:00 PM All these things will be fixed soon. I'm taking cookie bribes as further motivation. DNote me for a mailing address you can send them to. (please don't actually note me! I'm just kidding!)
zedsalt	Date: November 29, 2006 @ 10:39 AM It's a shame you're not accepting actual cookies. I make a chocolate chip cookie that, by comparison, makes the Toll House recipe taste like dried bung.
GeneHilbert	Date: November 29, 2006 @ 11:42 AM LOL
imemine	Date: November 29, 2006 @ 11:46 AM Mmmmmmmm dried bung cookies!
GeneHilbert	Date: December 4, 2006 @ 1:25 PM I want to Thank Jack and Tracy as well as the other Admin for working hard on fixing the IE coding difficulties.... Good Job, Thank You
ShadowMom	Date: December 4, 2006 @ 2:53 PM Joe, Jack and Tracy are the tinker, the tailor and the candlestick maker. They make things go.

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