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Mixers / recording equipment

MarcSalmon	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 10:02 AM I'm looking at replacing some of my music equipment as i've realised that what i've got is fine but i think it's limited as to what i can do with it. For example i want to start recording through a few mics simaltaneously which each have their own seperate tracks in Cubase so that i can play about with the mixing of them once recorded. At the moment, I have my instruments / mic running through my Behringer UB802 mixer: (http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/d2/page/shop/flypage/product_id/1790/category_id/0272999e9b222b2aa272cc099b53fdaf) which then runs through to my M-Audio Quattro USB interface : (http://www.portlandmusiccompany.com/quatro.html). Up till now this set up has been fine for my needs but now i want to record more than one mic at the same time to seperate tracks in cubase i don't think it can be done.. or can it, am i just being an idiot? Also, does anyone know what 'bus' means. My mixer is a 2-bus. I've been looking at bigger mixers (such as the soundcrafts) which are 4-bus and some which are 8-bus. I'm not sure what it means though. Does it mean how many seperate outputs there are? Sorry this is a bit of a long post!
StefanieNewport	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 10:09 AM marc, the music you have on this site is recorded by you? do you record at home? if so, that makes your music even MORE impressive to me. wonderful job, i assumed you were in a professional studio.
MarcSalmon	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 11:52 AM thanks stef yes i do everything myself Well after spending mostly the whole of today working on this, i've discovered that I can actually record 2 mics simultaneously on to seperate tracks in cubase, by setting one mic to left and the other to right, and just setting one track to record the left channel and one track to record the right channel! (which i never knew you could do..until today). But! My mixer only has 2 mic inputs as previously stated. So if i want to record more than 2 mics simultaneously, im going to have to get a better mixer, right? My Quattro interface can actually take 4 inputs so this means if i got a 4-bus mixer i could have 4 mics recording simultaneously.. correct? the mixer i am looking at is the soundcraft E6 or E8: http://www.soundslive.co.uk/moreinfo.asp?ID=2121
MarcSalmon	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 11:58 AM hmm, im still unsure what is meant by 'bus'.
ronnie71	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 12:09 PM i concur with Stephanie...
Apertome	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 12:20 PM Hey Marc, In short, yes, you will need a better mixer, or a separate mic preamp (which you can run directly into your quattro inputs -- looks like 1/4"?). I think you can also use dynamic mics via 1/4" by getting a different cable, but I'm not sure about that one. A "bus" is another mixer channel, except that you can route other channels to it. So, for example, say you want to use an external effect on two of the tracks at once. You can route them to the bus and then send the bus into the effect (some mixers have effects inserts/sends which make this unnecessary, but there are other uses for buses). Another example would be if you had 2 mono channels for micing guitars, you could hard pan them and send them to a bus to get a stereo channel. I hope this makes sense. A friend of mine just got a Quattro, and it seems pretty nice to me. 4 ins and outs is enough to do some pretty fancy stuff if you use them creatively.
MarcSalmon	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 12:58 PM thanks ron thanks for your reply mux hmm, i think im getting there, but i still dont quite understand. ok lets take my current mixer, 2-bus. is it because its a 2-bus that i can only simultaneously record 2 mics at the same time? yeah the quattro is good but it can't handle much in cubase. At least i think it's that which can't handle much. I don't think its my computer. Hmm. Maybe it is
MarcSalmon	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 1:00 PM i mean, there are another 2 1/4" line ins but because the only outputs i have are Main L & R.. i can't actually send 4 individual tracks to cubase.
Apertome	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 1:19 PM Device Setup and go to VST Multitrack, then click "control panel"). Increasing the buffer size will also lead to higher latency; try to find the sweet spot where the latency is minimal but the audio does not break up. Note that more involved tracks in Cubase may require more buffers. If you can't seem to get this to work, post more details about the problem you're having and your computer (CPU, RAM, Cubase version, etc)." id="95191">Device Setup and go to VST Multitrack, then click "control panel"). Increasing the buffer size will also lead to higher latency; try to find the sweet spot where the latency is minimal but the audio does not break up. Note that more involved tracks in Cubase may require more buffers. If you can't seem to get this to work, post more details about the problem you're having and your computer (CPU, RAM, Cubase version, etc).
MarcSalmon	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 1:35 PM well it says on the actual mixer "8 input 2-bus mixer" so it's deinitly 2 bus. I dont think i can configure those outputs, the control room out is for when i run cables from the 'out' connections in the Quattro to the Stereo Aux Return. This enables the main sound from cubase to come through control room out and headphones sockets. I dont currently have it configure this way though because i dont have enough cables, so i just go straight from the Quattro to the monitos. I'm still not understanding this bus thing About the quattro, if i have too many plugins running then the VST performance meter hits the roof lol, and everything comes to a grinding halt. I thought it would be because everything has to be processed through the quattro and because its USB it can't do it very efficiently But then, my computer is only a 1.6ghz 512 ram on XP. So maybe its that? I've been contemplating getting a delta 44/66, im thinking because its PCI it would be able to handle more than the quattro. What are your thoughts?
MarcSalmon	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 1:40 PM ive been looking intro mixers all day and i still dont get this bus thing. What should i be looking for if i want to record lots of tracks simultaneously into cubase? Should i be looking at what bus the mixer is, or does that not matter regarding this? or should i be looking for if every line in / mic input, has a direct output for each? or have i got the complete wrong end of the stick? lol
MarcSalmon	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 2:16 PM
Apertome	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 3:30 PM Hey, the short answer is that you don't really need to worry about buses for what you are trying to do, IMO. It sounds to me like you want to use the mixer mostly as a way to record into Cubase, to do most of the actual mixing there. For this, you don't need anything fancy, just an ouput for each in like you stated. You're on the right track. If you think of the master out as a bus (it is), imagine multiple master outs and that's what buses essentially are. So say you are recording your acoustic. You could, for instance, route the mics that are directly picking up your guitar sound to one bus and the ambient mics to another. This example may or may not be useful, but that's basically what the buses are for. It might make more sense with, say, drums. Say you mic each drum and you want to do some compression on the entire kit; you could route all the drum channels to a bus and do compression on the entire kit instead of each individual drum sound. You'll probably get a more coherent sound this way. You could be right about the Quattro's USB connection not being able to keep up; however, try adjusting the buffers anyway. I have a Delta 1010LT (which is PCI), and if I use too few buffers, I get exactly the same thing you are describing. The real question is: can you have enough buffers to avoid breakup and still have acceptable latency? I would guess that you can, but you'll have to mess with it to find out. There is always going to be some latency, you just have to figure out what is acceptable. I find on my 1010LT, on this system, I can do basic stuff with 512 samples latency at 16/44.1. When I start getting fancy (which is often ), I have to kick it up to 1024 or sometimes even higher. This is acceptable for my needs, and I could probably go higher if I needed to and be OK. It mostly depends on the VSTis and VST FX plug-ins I'm using. Cubase SX 2.0 has a "Freeze" feature for VSTis that basically lets you render the VSTi output to wav by simply clicking a button; you don't have to explicitly import it or anything. You'll have to wait a few minutes for it to happen, and you can't edit it while it's frozen. I often use this on VSTis that use a lot of CPU power, like Arturia's Moog Modular V. Unfortunately, I don't think you can freeze effects plug-ins.
MarcSalmon	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 3:49 PM ah i think i'm understanding now, thankyou very much mr mux. I think i will save my money for now and just buy a second mic to try out my newly discovered ability to record 2 mics on to seperate tracks at the same time Then later on i can upgrade and now i know exactly what to look for. Thanks a lot! i will play around with my quattro, see if i can get better performance out of it.
woodhead	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 6:33 PM ok marc the way I would record with this for drums is as follows. Use Channel one for your kick and Channel two for your snare. Use the 1/4 in jacks for your toms (toms you can get away with two mics on a five piece set) and over heads. If you look at your mixer you have four inputs that are unbalanced that use two faders to control set these mics up and test for signal. on your sound card you have four in puts, use input 1 for you kick you may have to give a hard pan for this and 2 for your snare. Use the tape outs for your toms and over heads bring them in in stereo so from this point you should have compete control over your kick and snare sepretaly but will have to sacrifice the control on your toms and over heads so the only real control you have here is through your original mix. It should work , I had a beringer board a long time ago and you can get a lot done with it, just have to experment is all.
woodhead	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 6:51 PM oh and on your board, use your outs for kick and snare and your tape outs for the rest
MarcSalmon	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 7:45 PM so you can route line in 3 & 4 to tape outs?? how on earth do u do that. I spose i could read the manual. if i can find it.
woodhead	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 7:59 PM you should be able to let me read the manual @ beringer and will get back with you
woodhead	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 8:02 PM if not you could always run them out through the effects loops, there is always a way, and an answer buddy
MarcSalmon	Date: April 11, 2004 @ 8:31 PM effects loops??
ronnie71	Date: April 12, 2004 @ 6:54 AM @ marc
MarcSalmon	Date: April 12, 2004 @ 11:02 AM
myrudehand	Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:24 PM Hey Marc (or anyone else who knows this stuff), do you use the "tape out/tape in" rca plugs to connect to your soundcard? I just got the same mixer and that seems to be the way to do it. I was also wondering, since my soundcard accepts "balanced" input (+4db) if you've heard of balanced 1/4in to rca adapters. Do they even exist? And finally if you mix balanced and unbalanced cables in your setup does everything run at the unbalanced level (sort of like a computer runs at the speed of its slowest memory)? Thanks!
Diabolicus	Date: May 28, 2004 @ 6:05 PM If you're still confused about busses here: A bus is a signal path that runs along your I/O's on the mixer. What they do is allow you to route 1 or more signals to a bus (let's say bus 1) and then you can then route that bus to input on any other of the channels that aren't routed to the bus in the first place (duh). It allows you to combine tracks down to one track, or in protools and other similar programs it allows you to create a fader for a group of tracks or even a master fader for the whole session. It basically provides you with more flexibility as to where you can route your signals. 2 bus mixer simply means you have 2 busses, so you can route signals to those two busses and have each bus going somewhere different. More busses- more signal routing flexiblity.
Veracohr	Date: May 29, 2004 @ 5:40 PM Unfortunately the term 'bus' is used for different things. When it is used in the term '2-bus', it basically means output. Large professional mixing consoles are usually 8-bus/2-bus, which means they have a regular stereo master output (the '2-bus') as well as 8 output channels that can be used in mono or combined into 4 stereo outputs, as Diabolicus describes.
Veracohr	Date: May 29, 2004 @ 5:43 PM Oh, and anything made by Soundcraft will be superior to that Behringer. Also check out Allen & Heath mixers, though they are probably more expensive if the Soundcraft is the price range you want to stay in.
MarcSalmon	Date: June 6, 2004 @ 7:18 PM hey myrudehand, sorry i havn't checked this topic for ages! i use the m-audio quattro instead of a soundcard so i dont use the tape in/outs. im sure u can get 1/4in - rca adapters there are loads of places on the net that provide all sorts of cables and things. actually thinking about it, i've got a 1/4in - rca cable which i got from the net. do a search on google and you'll get there. im not sure about your question on the balanced / unbalanced levels though. to be honest im not even sure what balanced means.
MarcSalmon	Date: June 6, 2004 @ 7:19 PM thanks diabolicus and veracohr.. i understand what a bus is now! i think
hueseph	Date: July 5, 2004 @ 2:00 AM Balance or unbalanced has more to do with whether or not the signal is grounded as in an xlr or tip/ring/sleeve (stereo) jack. Veracohr has the bus thing right. essentially the stereo outs of your Behringer are two busses. If you need to keep your budget low behringer does produce some multi buss units at reasonable prices. You can as well plug directly into the quattro which I believe has it's own preamps. I use the Delta 44 which is strictly an input. M-audio makes some great gear.
-kaveh-	Date: September 9, 2004 @ 12:25 PM i think that a good computer recording program would be cool edit pro..thats wat i use and so do most people

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