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Gawd, this place is full of such BS

Cruel2bKind	Date: April 21, 2005 @ 11:12 PM It's been said that the kindest thing one person can do for another is be honest...and I don't mean be a hurtful, asshole kind of honest...but straight and in the manner of helping. Criticism doesn't always mean it's negative. Constructive criticism enables people to be more, do more, and achieve higher and higher limits. Sheesh...after reading some of the reviews on songs that are clearly not worthy of such praise (in ways like the timing is horrendous, the vocals are off-key constantly, the tuning of the instruments is off - not the subjective "i like it" vs. "i don't like it" kind of thing..I mean real, correctable, FACTUAL shite)... What's with that? I mean, saying "I LOVE IT!" is really nice. But...can you REALLY "LOVE IT" when the guitar is out of tune? What about when the vocalist is so pitchy that you're not sure what key the song is in? Don't you think it would make the person who wrote/performed the song a TON better to hear, honestly and with kindness, about those issues? And even better, to point out ways to help them solve or make those issues better? over soapbox dive
imemine	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 12:08 AM Ok, I’m in! Start with me and tell me what you think--- You only have a lightning bolt so I can’t reciprocate or I promise that I would. See, personally I think that I suck so you can’t hurt my feelings and I gave up on a career in music a long time ago for a “real job”, a wife and two kids. So you have an axe to grind, I’m your flint stone. Pull out the stops and let ‘er fly.
DigWeed	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 12:13 AM yeah i totaly agree, i started a similar thread asking for the same thing a couple of days ago.. I even left note on my page for people that comment to give some constructive comments..
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 12:30 AM no..no axe to grind, per se...I just believe in being honest with people in the hopes that it helps them. It's not about whether or not I "like" or "dislike" your song...it's about what I think you're song has and doesn't have...and I'll support that by giving specific and honest feedback regarding factual, impartial observations. I just look around and see most people on this site oo'ing and ah'ing over each other...and it seems like it's more so they'll get listened to in return. I'm all for exchanging musical digits...but I won't lie to someone just to get a song heard. Some guy, CsaintG, who I reviewed a short time ago, sent a shout saying it was the first time in 20 years or something that anyone's ever told him his timing was off...and he thanked me. That's what it should be about...at least that's what I think.
imemine	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 1:01 AM I hear you man and agree with you I a way but there are plenty of other sites for that too. This is a supportive community of musicians of all levels that look to each other for support and---believe it or not advice. I think that the interaction around here-for the most part-make us all better, I know that I have grown by being a member here. Believe me when I say---I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING--- all I’m saying is that live and let live. Say your piece and be cool with it. Others do (Mux ) and others too. Yet some simply try to be supportive. The reality is that we all know in our heart of hearts what the “truth”, as you put, is. All we have to do is to compare ourselves to our influences and it’s like a mirror. Clearly it’s quite easy to point out what’s wrong with everything in life. Frankly I hate Mondays. It’s much harder to find something about Monday that’s nice to say about it and really, Monday gets a bad rap. It’s but one of seven and it really tries hard to just get up for itself after all that constructive criticism it’s received over the years. Friday gets all the attention. See, Monday found that a support group like Tuesday and Thursday have good things to say about Monday because their in the same boat really. Wednesday being Hump day and all, and hey---Saturday goes without saying. So in conclusion, say what you will and it’s all good but if you tell me that “this place is full of such BS” with only 57 points, it just tells me that you haven’t listened to a whole lot of music and you just have to trust me here, there IS a LOT of really good music right here!
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 1:14 AM That's quite an assumption you've made...based solely on my 57 points... Maybe I've listened for years without an account...and maybe there IS a LOT of really good music here...but that's not the point (since GOOD isn't really an objective thing, is it?). The point of my comment/this thread is my opinion, by and large, seems to be that this place is full of smoke-blowers and back-slappers...which it is (and you know it, apparently)...and I'm supposed to be quiet (Yeah, ya 57-point noob!) and be "supportive" (by doing the same thing, I imagine). No, thanks. I think supportive means being honest with each other as well as hooking up a high-5.
imemine	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 1:28 AM Oooo, speaking of honest. Who are you then? I would suggest that you reflect back to your original post if you want to throw out words like “objective”. I think that you are a really good forum poster and quite sincere. I feel your passion and the way that you put together a sentence. You rock dude!
JudgeMental	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 7:19 AM Cruel2bkind... Maybe you should just stick to just reviewing the people who invite you to Anyone else may just think your self-opinionated or an egotist. After all, whether a song is technically correct or not aint always an issue for some people...audiences or the artist themselves. And maybe some people just wont give a shit whether you think they are good or not A lot of folk wont appreciate your condescending tone or the fact that you quote from text books on "how to mix your first song" I've been a professional musician for over 40 years...that's how I've earned my living. One thing I've learned on this site is that a lot of people just do music for fun, not to earn a living - that's a whole different ball game. People have a right to post music however and anyway they like here. You can't come on here and proclaim yourself to be an expert...nobody can - not even us pros. Nobody here knows who you are...most people wont even care! Trust me on that! You don't have any songs up yourself - so I'm not sure why your here. We all have opinions, but we dont all join a site merely to voice them. I'm not flamming you dude...just trying to get you to understand that your opinions aint the law round here...or anywhere in music. Like I said...if you REALLY want to help, then note the artist first before slamming their efforts. Honesty is fine, but manners rate high too in these parts. OK?
kingo	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 7:47 AM "can you REALLY "LOVE IT" when the guitar is out of tune? What about when the vocalist is so pitchy that you're not sure what key the song is in?" The answer, I'm afraid, mister objectivity, is a resounding yes. Some of us really do like to hear out of tune guitars and fucked-up sounding vocals. Doesn't mean people aren't slapping each other on the back, ass, and forehead, and doesn't mean people aren't blowing smoke every which way, but my point is that you're the one making assumptions. You've got absolutely no way of knowing whether or not any given comment is genuine or not. You seem to be under the impression that a song with off-key vocals and out of tune guitars is objectively bad. And that's YOUR problem. Not the site's. Here, have this thing :mole:" id="132016">"this place is full of smoke-blowers and back-slappers..." Is that objectively wrong? If someone posts a song and wants specific pointers as to how to improve it or their craft in general, they'll probably specifically ask for that. However: you're talking a lot about objectivity in relation to people saying "I love it." "can you REALLY "LOVE IT" when the guitar is out of tune? What about when the vocalist is so pitchy that you're not sure what key the song is in?" The answer, I'm afraid, mister objectivity, is a resounding yes. Some of us really do like to hear out of tune guitars and fucked-up sounding vocals. Doesn't mean people aren't slapping each other on the back, ass, and forehead, and doesn't mean people aren't blowing smoke every which way, but my point is that you're the one making assumptions. You've got absolutely no way of knowing whether or not any given comment is genuine or not. You seem to be under the impression that a song with off-key vocals and out of tune guitars is objectively bad. And that's YOUR problem. Not the site's. Here, have this thing
Svensta	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 8:26 AM Yay, Halaka! Well said. "You've got absolutely no way of knowing whether or not any given comment is genuine or not." Ta-da! Suck it up, man, why should effusively positive comments bother you? What's wrong with support? What's wrong with musical appreciation? You simply cannot be saying that what YOU feel is good or bad is what EVERYONE should feel. You can't be that dull.
zedsalt	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 12:56 PM I've been accused of being both a boot-licking sycophant AND needlessly cruel, regarding VERY similar comments. It has yet to happen regarding one sole comment, but I won't be surprised when it happens. Maybe this one will do the trick: Jimi Hendrix and Jimmy Page are two of the sloppiest guitar players I've ever heard, and both are infamous for playing out of tune. That having been said, their music is transcendent, and I could listen to them all day.
jordanthegreat	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 3:35 PM when i like some sloppy playing i listen to some srv, you boot-licking sycophant and needlessly cruel commenter!
Hatsy	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 5:19 PM I only read the first passage by cruel2bkind and I am diving in here to answer that before I read any of the other comments/answers.... First I don't believe in sticking my nose in someone else's song in a negative way. I see where you are coming from on the 'constructive' theme, BUT, a lot of young kids & new musicians join this site with their first compositions and the last thing anyone wants them to do is turn right around and head off into the sunset with their song bag badly hacked and their hearts heavy and maybe never to write/play again.... Listen, I was that person with a bag of songs once and yes maybe some of them needed a lot of work, maybe I was out of key, or struggling, or whatever, I know at times I was just plain crap, I told myself that for years, I didn't need anyone else to point it out however politely it may have been said. There can be a multitude of tiny errors in any given song or any voice that needs a bit of practice, but I can tell you now that had I been subjected to a lot of picky know-all serious musicians lording their obvious betterness over me I would have given up. Being artistic of nature means having a sensitive side in a lot of cases, and sometimes yeah perhaps too sensitive, it goes with the territory and maybe you have a skin as thick as a rhino but I haven't and I know most haven't & newcomers young or old need encouragement, NOT criticism and certainly not the 'open' comment box kind. If you think you have all the answers to anyone else's material then you are sadly mistaken. Nobody knows how another person wants their material to sound, because we are listening to something we did not create, therefore we are listening to the sound of someone's soul laid bare. And for what it's worth I like some songs for their less than perfect'ness. I like some singers for their emotion, some for their reality, some for their tone, some for their heartbreaking intensity, some for their bitter angst that rings out like a siren in a sea of transparent boring shit, the kind that is mostly available in every record store you care to name for a nice 'lovingly' packaged price. This site is populated by tryers of amazing temperament and style, not all of it is acceptable in the mainstream because it is so vulnerably beautiful on a level that you don't see when the record moguls have got a hold of a bunch of kids or a new talent - and turned them into a mass consumer 'product' - it's too late then, the moulding machine has gone into overdrive. What you find here on dmusic is a raw greatness of artistry in it's infancy a lot of the time, this creativity is borne in the delight of someone finding they are able to play or sing up a new idea or a dream. And then to be able to enjoy the element of sharing it as a solid piece of work has a certain gullibility to it and again I say a vulnerability which must not be abused. Every time we put a song up here we feel a sense of dread and a sense of excitement and we are long toothed to this game and still it fills us with a little fear, so now Cruel2bkind what would you think a person would feel if they put their vision up on the net for the first time and had it ripped to pieces by people that you have encouraged to do so? This is purely personal - I like some wonky music, I like some wonky drums, I like some out of tune guitar. Listen to Radiohead for your inspiration on doing things 'correctly' - every thing they ever did was flawed to perfection and look where it got them. Go find Tom Waits if you really wanna hear how someone can crack this crap business by doing things NOT BY THE BOOK. The guy coughs, splutters, taps his toes in the background on recordings and plays and sings what the damn hell he feels like, in or out of tune and who would say he couldn't or shouldn't? - You'd be a fool to say it was wrong, he does what he does because he's an artist. I don't listen to music to find fault with it, I listen to find the beauty sitting just behind the shaky voice, the missed string, the wobbly pitch catching the wild surprise in a singers voice, I listen for what is written between the lines, what is not always said is sometimes the most poignant part of a conversation, perfection is in the eyes and ears of the watcher and listener, individuals find and comment on what they like, who are you to disagree with what anyone else likes? It's ridiculous, it's like me tellin you that I like donuts and you telling me that I don't! Try getting off your high horse sometime, you may even get past yourself and your own standards, which I might add are pretty low since you are not able to observe and respect the efforts of others for the guts they have in even doing what they are doing and giving lots of us a serious amount of pleasure. You will be amazed what you can hear if you really listen - and faults are only faults to those who label them so, if there are so many imperfections here then there are some awesome ones, these mistakes sometimes bring me to tears and make me sit back and wonder at the new talent shining through. I wouldn't ask anyone to change a thing. If someone needed advice I am sure they could send a note to any of their peers, and who in the hell are you to judge so bitterly? Please come back and tell us your credentials for such a lofty position, you must be amazingly experienced for such sweeping statements. I wonder what a young John Lennon would have made of your influence? I love Dmusic
Hatsy	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 5:53 PM Right, now I have read through the comments that came after the first one by Cruel2bkind I just want to add this.... I have only ever listened to one piece of music on this site that really was a noise rather than a song, I assumed that it was someones idea of a joke, it may have been or it might truly have been a serious shot at something that the creator believed in. That's not my job to judge on the right of that person to post their material whether it is good, bad or ugly to my ears. The song consisted of screaming stuff with no beginning or end to say for sure, I bypassed it, no comment, and moved on to find my next piece of wonder. I have a list of artists on our page as long as your arm, all totally different from the next and I find more than I can keep up with everyday. So in the case of the one really weird piece that I couldn't get my head around I'll say that to me it wasn't what I would call a song, to another person it may have been unique and unadulterated heaven to their ears & that's fine by me. If the person I bypassed who made that work had noted me privately and asked me why I declined to comment the most I would have said to them would have been that it was not my cup of tea. If I was asked a technical question then I might try to help but I would never hinder, nobody can ever say they no best in the bubbling waters of creativity. There are forums here for those that ask for help on drum programming etc., etc., these are the areas for musicians to ask for and receive help from each other or from anyone who has the knowledge to impart a little of their wisdom. The key word here is 'ASK' Why don't you go and stick your nose somewhere else, we're all having a great time here, or is that maybe the real issue? Yeah perhaps we've been enjoying the camaraderie a little too much, isn't that wonderful Here, have this thing
leplume	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 6:34 PM AHHH don't give him a Hmm, comments, comments everywhere....look, bottom line...we are all here making our music whatever that may be. Some people come by and love it and others can't stand it. The thing is it is all in the ear of the listener. I agree with Treebone. Who am I to take someones work and demolish it in anyway? We all upload stuff here, sit back and hope for the best. Personally, I would be crushed if someone just came out and said I stunk without leaving me some idea of how to improve. So, no you can't take the Here, have this thing
GTOriginal	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 6:57 PM I woke up this morning to find my new song dissected by this guy. I don't remember asking for that, but I may have requested listens publicly. I agree with some but not most of the points made in this dissection. However, anyone who rips any music apart under the guise of constructivity doesn't deserve my time or attention. Being a gentleman, I thanked him or her for listening. Why is it that the biggest critics have nothing of their own to show us? This is like the 5th example I have seen of some jerk trashing a tune, calling it "constructive criticism" and having no music of their own.
BOWILLIE	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 7:01 PM myself ..personally..have used that term love it..because i did. and imemine has some great songs posted by the way...and i loved them too..you can't be right out insulting to a person who is brave enough to show the goods to a audience of peers...this site is based on interaction.you can't tear a person down about his or her attempts at making music..if everyone really told the complete truth about how they felt about a certain tune...this site would probaly close due to the fear of posting a song and the reputation of having a bunch of better than thou artists involved in it..we've had these discusions before here..everyone involved has reached a mutual understanding and we are happy with our selfs..you cant fix what isnt broken...
imemine	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 7:05 PM I think that Cruel2bKind is pseudonym for someone that we all actually know and love around here and I’ve got an idea of who it might be. Zebra’s don’t change their stripes so read closely. There are some distinct characteristics of another DM user. Just curious why a pseudonym was used for this particular topic?
elektronz	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 7:16 PM ive been here for over 2 years and in that time i honestly can say that ive not heard a tune that hasnt been written from the heart ,,ok so sometimes a duff note pops up or a vocal note isnt quite hit ,,who cares ,some of my stuff isnt spot on ,,but thats the beauty of it i think ,,its what makes this site so vibrant ,colorful ,diverse and so enjoyable to be a part of . there are some totally amazing people on here who produce sheer quality on every track they do ..there are some who dont ,,again who cares ,,im proud of every track i do ,,ok so they dont float everyones boat ,,im not bothered ,,if it pleases me then ive acheived my goal ,,,hmm so whats my point ,,err ,oh i ,,just enjoy the site for what it is a community for sharing your musical offerings ,wether good ,not so good ,or indifferent ,,,,bugger now ive really gone off the rails ,,ok to sum up ,,i would wait a while until youve checked out lots of peeps on here b4 you start to disect there tracks and if any criticism is to be aimed then it only should be advisory/helpful and not derrogatory ,,damn now ive contradicted myself ,,crap ,,i need a beer
Hatsy	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 7:31 PM I think you said a fine thing there Electronz and I tip my hat to Bow & GT also, everyone clearly has a positive opinion in this thread, which seems somewhat to be blowing the big negative headliner out of the water. If Imemine is right then I think it is a cowardly way for the person to address this topic or maybe even just plain old green eyed jealousy... I am reading back the comment & the only clues I can find in the text are... (Miss Marple strikes again) - the words 'sheesh' and the title which contains the word 'Gawd' - these are both unusual old fashionedy kind of words you don't see that often.... Let's go a snooping My first stop is to GT's song den, to see the extent of the damage, synchronize all watches for the 'Get Shorty' campaign !! Or should that read 'Get Cruelty!' Hah!!
cosmicearthgirl	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 7:57 PM Maybe the problem is simply that this cruel2bkind character is in the wrong measure. Although I suspect that's a very good sign.
Hatsy	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 8:13 PM The so called 'Thank You' Cruel2bekind refers to regarding Csaint is not actually a thank you at all, it is a very clever way of saying that the person is talking crap!! Go take a look in Cruel2b's shoutbox for yourself, Csaint actually says very politely that it is the first time anyone has ever mentioned that his drum programming is 'out' in 25 years....yes, it was an intelligent put down and so polite that Cruel2b didn't recognise it as such... Another example of the respectfulness that abounds at dmusic. Here, have this thing Transport!!!
leplume	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 8:23 PM cosmicearthgirl! That is funny!
kingo	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 8:48 PM CEG and leplume: It's not THAT funny, as I've had that gawdamned song stuck in my head all day now. Treebone: Your initial response to this is absolutely brilliant. You've so eloquently defined exactly what I love about this site and about indie music. imemine: Always lookin' for a conspiracy, aren't ya? Sheesh.
leplume	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 8:56 PM I vote Halaka the funniest person here at DMusic. Here, have this thing Sorry the budget wasn't enough for a trophy but please accept this bowling pin from all of us!
Hatsy	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 8:59 PM Halaka thank you!! Sheesh what's the latest on the Get Shorty trail... I spotted a small freak hangin' around outside some comment boxes earlier but it turned out to be a I think we can safely say we're all gonna get a visit from the Cruel2bkind police in the next couple of days, so this is gonna be waiting in our song den It's a very difficult customer when ruffled!! It's got thousands of friends too
GTLive	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 9:03 PM OMG! A light bulb just when on Hehe DM is the best.
leplume	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 9:05 PM Where are those damn emus when you need them?
kingo	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 9:12 PM Lightbulb? Where. All I've got down here are these matches. But there's a gasleak. Although I'm pretty sure there IS an emu here, somewhere.
cosmicearthgirl	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 9:19 PM If it's any consolation, it's been stuck in my head all day too.
kingo	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 9:21 PM Well aren't we all just buzzing with that insipid tune? Erm. At least it sounds insipid playing in my fucking head like this. Can't get the singer to turn down the cheese knob.
elektronz	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 9:24 PM dont eat cheese b4 you sleep ,,gives you nightmares ::-0:
elektronz	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 9:24 PM stick off the booze son it aint doin you no good
leplume	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 9:25 PM Maybe the words cheese knob and head shouldn't be used in the same post! Being from Wisconsin it takes on a whole new meaning!
kingo	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 9:31 PM Well shit, I don't think that whole string of nouns, when singled out like that, means anything specifically unweird no matter WHAT state you're from. Who's got booze? Could I get some of it? Please?
Hatsy	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 9:42 PM hic! Booze on the house in the treehouse ! (small belch) hic! sorry, ahem...
leplume	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 9:47 PM Thats what I like about Treebone. She lives by that everything in moderation crap!
Hatsy	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 10:02 PM I never touch a drop before sun up or sundown
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 10:49 PM Wow..the community riseth against me! Apologies for any offense. I truly mean none, even if it may seem by my initial frustrated words that I do... For Mr/Mrs Judgemental: "And maybe some people just wont give a shit whether you think they are good or not" - And nor should they. "Good" and "Bad" isn't what I pinpoint...it's actual, factual issues within a song... "A lot of folk wont appreciate your condescending tone or the fact that you quote from text books on "how to mix your first song" I don't own any such book... and if my tone seems condescending, that's not my intention (and I'd say it's probably a judgement, sorry for the pun, or assumption of the reader). "I've been a professional musician for over 40 years One thing I've learned on this site is that a lot of people just do music for fun, not to earn a living - that's a whole different ball game. People have a right to post music however and anyway they like here. You can't come on here and proclaim yourself to be an expert...nobody can - not even us pros." First off, where did you ever see me proclaim to be anything? Second, I have a right to be here, music written and uploaded or not...just like everyone else who is here. By honestly reviewing people's music, if that makes me "the enemy"...I'd say there's a problem with either the community or the site. What harm does it do anyone to have someone honestly critique their music? If I'm nobody then you read the review and say "whatever"...no harm, no foul. If you're genuinely interested in bettering your music...maybe JUST MAYBE some of my comments will help out...which is what I'd like to see more than anything. "Nobody here knows who you are...most people wont even care! Trust me on that!" I see...If that were true, why has this thread garnered so many responses and my shoutbox full of hatemail? I know...because nobody cares, clearly... See, if people truly don't care, they wouldn't bother with any of it. Wouldn't bother to respond...wouldn't bother getting worked up...Would they? "You don't have any songs up yourself - so I'm not sure why your here. We all have opinions, but we dont all join a site merely to voice them." I have to have songs up to be here? Uh, no. I don't think so... As I've said, I like to think that comments I make are specific and objective and will help those musicians who are open minded and interested in improving. Do I need to have songs up to do that? Do I have to prove myself as a producer/songwriter/player of instrumentation? Why can you not accept that someone's comments come from a place of honesty and true helpfulness instead of the easy road (I feel like I'm in Star Wars...Don't take the road to the DARK SIDE, LUKE...it's TOO EASY)...it's always easier to burn the witch than it is to accept them for who they are... "I'm not flamming you dude...just trying to get you to understand that your opinions aint the law round here..." Thanks for clearing that up. I was beginning to wonder... "law don't go round here law dog"... I'm here, huckleberry. "...or anywhere in music. Like I said...if you REALLY want to help, then note the artist first before slamming their efforts." I'm not slamming anyone's efforts. I'm making pointed comments about the songs based on facts. If that's hurtful to you or anyone, I'm sorry you take things as personally as it seems you must. Every day I see TONS of people leaving shouts for reviews of their music...what's your problem there? Sigh..I'll be up far too late if I try and get into any more Q&A's here...
kingo	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 11:16 PM and then say offensive shit four paragraphs later ("I'd say there's a problem with either the community or the site.") 3. nobody's interested in bettering anything, just making your life suck 4. you need a hat. 5. you didn't take the thing I tried to give you earlier, and for that I will never fucking forgive you. Here, have a :cheese: (hint: it goes with a knob.) " id="132122">1. stop changing yer story. 2. Don't say "Apologies for any offense. I truly mean none," and then say offensive shit four paragraphs later ("I'd say there's a problem with either the community or the site.") 3. nobody's interested in bettering anything, just making your life suck 4. you need a hat. 5. you didn't take the thing I tried to give you earlier, and for that I will never fucking forgive you. Here, have a (hint: it goes with a knob.)
dkeifer	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 11:23 PM I for one am only interested in making things worse.
onewhodreams	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 11:37 PM I just want to say that Treebone's first post is so very well said and in so many respects explains what kind of music community we have here. ...and I'm really enjoying reading this thread
hueseph	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 11:48 PM Cruel2bkind. i have to say I'm with you on this one. I've heard plenty of music hear and had to bite my tongue cause I know that any sort of criticism can and will be taken the wrong way. Especially by those who are in their mind are accomplished musicians. I suck too and I know it. Music is just a hobbie for me. the thing is all those things you hated about cliques and the cool people carry on in websites like this. I don't mean that as a stab at this site or the people in it. It just happens to be true. I know that the majority will disagree but that is the nature of mob mentality. That isn't to say you can't make constructive criticism work here, you just have to be careful what you say. As you and I well know, atrists are often ego driven. If any of you have ever tried to produce a band, you will know this all too well. Tact and diplomacy are of utmost importance. Myself I've seen both sides of this. Once had ego and have been shot down. Now I'm just happy to play for my personal enjoyment though I'm always willing to take pointers.
hueseph	Date: April 22, 2005 @ 11:49 PM Uh edit: "all those things you hated about High School like cliques and the cool people."
imemine	Date: April 23, 2005 @ 12:02 AM IT¡¯S A GAD DAMN CONSPIRACY I TELL YOU! : garneredeggplant: ¡°proclaim to be anything¡± b) me too! ºñ¿À´Â ¿ÀÈÄ ¶ß²öÇÑ »õ¿ìÅÁ¸é ÀÎ»ýÀÇ ±â»Ý Zero Zero comes Assembly line stops running Can't make anything and then there were three¡¦¡¦.
GTOriginal	Date: April 23, 2005 @ 12:19 AM Re-reading this post I caught the phrase "I wouldn't lie to someone just to get them to play my music". That blew your credibility for me. You'd be lying to them if you told them you had music to listen to. Please post some tunes before you go dissecting the work of others. Establish credibility or drop the "trying to help others improve" bullshit please. We get at least 10 of these a year around here.
BOWILLIE	Date: April 23, 2005 @ 12:36 AM been playin for 40 years huh...this guy is riaa..hang his ass.
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 23, 2005 @ 12:49 AM Halaka: "Is that objectively wrong? If someone posts a song and wants specific pointers as to how to improve it or their craft in general, they'll probably specifically ask for that." Well, Halaka, most people don't post asking for anything..they simply advertise "PLEASE LISTEN TO MY NEW SONG PLEASE PLEASE AND PLEASE COMMENT ON IT THANK YOU JESUS!". So...I did. How can you have a problem with that? However: you're talking a lot about objectivity in relation to people saying "I love it." "can you REALLY "LOVE IT" when the guitar is out of tune? What about when the vocalist is so pitchy that you're not sure what key the song is in?" The answer, I'm afraid, mister objectivity, is a resounding yes. Some of us really do like to hear out of tune guitars and fucked-up sounding vocals. Ok...yes. Maybe you can if that's what is INTENDED in a song. If a songwriters INTENTIONS are to have out of tune guitars, and vocals that are off key..that's all well and good. But for most of these people I'm talking with/commenting on, they are interested in making something sound along the lines of what I'd call "amateur" or "semi-pro" songs and recordings and take them somewhat seriously in arrangement, playing and such. I don't think their INTENTION is to not have solid timing, or out of tune instruments, or subpar EQ/compression ratios, or a vocal melody that doesn't match the lyrics. I think they see their creation as more of a serious work (not to say that someone who makes a song consisting of out of tune guitars and vox doesn't take it seriously...it simply depends on what the artist is trying to do, and I hope I don't have to explain further as I'm sure you know this). "Doesn't mean people aren't slapping each other on the back, ass, and forehead, and doesn't mean people aren't blowing smoke every which way, but my point is that you're the one making assumptions. You've got absolutely no way of knowing whether or not any given comment is genuine or not. You seem to be under the impression that a song with off-key vocals and out of tune guitars is objectively bad. And that's YOUR problem. Not the site's." CsaintG's song "I wonder" seems like a song he put some of himself into, and likely he wants that to come across in the arrangement, lyrics and production. THAT's my only assumption...and I make comments based on my thought that he wants people to connect with it on personal level...which is what my comments would, hopefully, help him accomplish. IF it's not his goal...and my assumption is wrong...what's the problem? He just has to say "gee, thanks..but I like it the way it is (so piss off)" and that's that. Thanks for the
imemine	Date: April 23, 2005 @ 12:59 AM Everyone4 needs a mole! 7
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 23, 2005 @ 1:05 AM Treebone: "so now Cruel2bkind what would you think a person would feel if they put their vision up on the net for the first time and had it ripped to pieces by people that you have encouraged to do so?" I think it depends on the person and that neither you nor I can say for certain what would happen. I do, however, feel that my comments in no way "rip to pieces" anyones work. I don't say "YOUR SONG SUCKS!" I say, "The guitar is out of tune, which detracts from the overall listenability of the song"... This is something that, (ahem, Halaka..if it's not INTENDED) is easily remedied and for those musicians you speak of, Treebone, may actually HELP them (o, my guitar is out of tune? SHeesh! Maybe I should learn how to tune it then, eh?...how do I do that?) And they may become EVEN BETTER musicians. "I wouldn't ask anyone to change a thing. If someone needed advice I am sure they could send a note to any of their peers..." Again, these people are one's who posted advertisements asking for listens to their songs. I listen to music because I LIKE it...and if I happen to think I have a feel for what the artist is trying to do, I make comments to try and help them with that goal...ONCE MORE, if I'm off base, who cares? If it "crushes" someone that I state the obvious, that the timing is off, that the drum track is the same thru the whole song...that's something I can't understand. IF I were to say "YOU BLOW AS A SONGWRITER", that would be a different story...but I don't. "...and who in the hell are you to judge so bitterly?" The only bitterness I see is the response I'm getting for responding to people's requests for listens and comments and doing so honestly. Thanks for the
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 23, 2005 @ 1:08 AM Leplume: "Personally, I would be crushed if someone just came out and said I stunk without leaving me some idea of how to improve." THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I have only stated facts in my comments on JUST THAT...how to improve, and I do it without saying "YOU STINK". Maybe you should read some of my comments before you respond again. You can keep that
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 23, 2005 @ 1:13 AM GTOriginal: " woke up this morning to find my new song dissected by this guy. I don't remember asking for that, but I may have requested listens publicly." Yes, you did. If you don't agree with my "dissection" (aka "Comments") on your song, that's great. I hope the one's you did find helpful are such. <