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Gawd, this place is full of such BS

ShakerGreen	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 12:39 AM Wow, the big chief speaks, can't handle an opinion. yet has nothing to say about the real issues, Please do delete my account, I can still listen to music, Leflaw, you are so wrong for this place, even if you have a fancy Microphone you still suck, so screw you back! and delet my account, and all the other fictisous ones you've created over the years. please please please, give Dm users the ability to delete the account they no longer need! By the way, Cruel2bekind should go and review your lame music!!! I knew this would wake you up from the slumber of being a shitty musician who owns a music web site!!!! I'll keep baiting you until you delete me, so get on it and show some much needed athority here!!instead of being a whining Anti RIAA crybaby!!!! come on bring it on!!!! LMFAO!!!
ShakerGreen	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 12:42 AM Damn!!!, I wanted to have my reply to the lawyer dudes screw you visible, you are too quick Imemine!Oh well Im sure he'll post some more leadership skills soon!!!
victorsskull	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 12:50 AM wow so all the comments on my music are all lies thats it Im gonna go slit my rist right now
leflaw	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 12:50 AM I think I will survive with out this jealous asshole.
imemine	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 12:54 AM @ Victor---and damn you all, I'm trying to get to bed here. Wait until tomorrow before anything drastic because I want to see it go down!
victorsskull	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 12:56 AM truth is the comments realy dont mean squat! its how many down loads ya get
imemine	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 12:58 AM Thanks for removing that double post----
leflaw	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 1:09 AM Sure. Shaker Green had got me on a "lets clean up the site" kick. I started with him
leflaw	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 1:12 AM And I did a "force email validation" on Cruel2bekind. It always amazes me that people want me to do a dominance down on trolls. Even old shaker likes strong leadership. Must be a Jesuit.
Veracohr	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:37 AM I didn't read all the posts, I imagine most of them said the same thing. I've got two comments. First of all, my favorite Velvet Underground song is "Heroin", which sounds like shit, is full of out-of-tune vocals, unpleasant guitar feedback, and at a couple points the drums even drop out because the drummer couldn't hear herself in the studio with the cacaphony of the rest of the band, but they kept the mix. Sloppy playing and recording really doesn't make a whole lot of difference to a lot of people. Second, at least out of the songs that I comment on, it seems like there's more comments from other musicians here than non-musician listeners. Musicians generally like to be supportive of other musicians, and we generally tend to be more open-minded about what is good music.
BOWILLIE	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 5:20 AM and as the swin were cast to the sea..they screamed back in unison..we are legion..we are many..we are one.
BOWILLIE	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 5:21 AM swine..
hueseph	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 6:21 AM Poor musicians temd top be the most open minded about what is good music. I think it's sad that shaker green is so uptight about a community that he will likely never meet personally. I think it's also sad that Cruel2bkind has gotten the rap for being honest. I still think what he has said is valid. The opening statement could have used a bit more tact but other than that, I think he made some good points. Kind words are not always in our best interest. Yes-men are never out for our best interest.
hueseph	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 6:22 AM "poor musicians tend to be the most openminded about what is good music."
BOWILLIE	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 6:33 AM meaning that a less talented person would embrace less quality in a song?
Hatsy	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 6:51 AM Collabs are another great part of the site I might add, simply awesome
kingo	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 9:56 AM You know what else this place is good for? A good flame-war now and then.
Hatsy	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 10:04 AM Yeah but we're not supposed to say we like it
GTOriginal	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 10:28 AM As far as I'm concerned (yes I'm back how can I not peek at this train wreck every so often?) Cruel2BeKind has not gotten a bad rap for his honesty. From my perspective he got a bad rap for his disrespectful delivery of an opinion without backing up his words in any way, shape, or form. From my perspective he only said one inappropriate thing, which he later explained in a note. He has come to this site and attaked the way others review things, as though he knows why people say what they do. That is pure pretension. For the record, I am not pleased with the brown nose factor here either, or the High School clique mentality. But if 10 people trash my tunes and one person gets entertained, it's worth my time, far as I go. OK, I'd sign outta here for good, but who am I kidding? I'll be back to peek at this train wreck again soon.
Hatsy	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 11:00 AM From a bad start some good things did come out of this train wreck (great expression GT, always get that from you ) For the record, in future I am always going to explain why I LOVE a particular song, even if the music is already documented by a link on our page - that means I like that artist and their work so far to date. I will go the extra mile for music I believe in and if I happen to like the person behind the music I enjoy hearing then I make no excuses for that and I will continue to frequent those songs and those artists pages with whom I feel a physical and mental connection. Nobody tells me how to review and/or what I like or dislike. I got a brain and a heart for that and I use it. As for quick (love this) comments declaring my enjoyment, yeah I make em sometimes, time is short, but I also enlarge on the details of a track when I get time, that's usually in between clearing up after the kids, the dog, the messed up life I lead and also in between trying to knock together some music that we believe in too. Oh and making food, to keep us all fed, and staying in touch with friends at home & away, online or next door. Life takes our time, thank God some of us maintain enthusiasm for it. I am also visiting the folks who were treated to some criticism and finding out for myself what I like or dislike about their music. So far I like it, very much. I have formed my own opinion and am happy to share that. I do not expect a pat on the back for listening or a return visit, I am quite happy to enjoy the music avaiable here purely from a listening angle, it's Sunday afternoon here, it makes for a nice interlude in my busy day, if the owner of the songs comes by to thank me later then great, that's just good manners and I would do the same for anyone who has taken the time to come by our page, if at a later stage we become online buddies well ain't life grand.
onewhodreams	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 12:28 PM Just to be clear I did ask Mr. Cruel if I could point him to some of what I think to be the best music here on dm, and he kindly replied, "I'd rather stick to listening to people's songs who ask for listens/comments." So, basically he is here to share his enlightened words of wisom, if asked, but not really to listen or find music that he might actually like. I have to disagree with the title of this thread as well. This place is not BS. It has bits and pieces of BS, sure , but this place is nothing like any other music site out there and I don't believe it was created to be. We are not just a place like garageband.com (that I too have uploaded my music at), we are an online music community, a place where we can share our music AND make friends, which most of us have and are grateful for. There is not another place out there like DM, so I for one am grateful for the hard work leflaw, fu-dog, and the many others that volunteer their time here to make this place what it is.
imemine	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 1:14 PM I’ve been watching and participating in this thread from the beginning and now I’m about to somewhat capitulate. Though I have issues with the title of the thread and the premise that one size fits all, I do personally believe that we should all be able to state our “opinion”! So what if you have one out of 30 or so comments that you don’t particularly want to hear. It’s someone’s “opinion”! It certainly is no justification for pulling the comment, moving your page and even worse---banning someone from the site! Is this place some kind of an oligarchy because if that is what it is, I want nothing to do with it! Deal with it, ignore it, and perhaps learn from it but for gods sake move on people. I welcome advice through the ears of another and have learned from people around here that were “kind” enough, if you will, (Mux, Van, Halaka, Veracohr, Vickxxx, freddemillio ---there are others) to leave me some constructive advice. One of these guys compelled me to get better at writing drum tracks so I’ve been reading extensively on how to get into the mind of a drummer.(scary thought isn’t it ) See, I don’t currently have the luxury to use a real drummer at this juncture in my life so saying that I need to use a real drummer would not be constructive at all---it’s just not going to happen and a totally invalid “opinion”! But it should be fine to leave your “opinion” if I have my music posted for people to comment on. Yes, there is a difference in “flaming” someone and leaving constructive criticism. I don’t believe that Cruel2BeKind actually “flamed” anyone. I read them all including the one he left me. In fact, the comments he left on my page were fairly accurate. Harsh realities but accurate---in MY “opinion”. So here’s the rub, you post your music here and ask people to listen to it. Some are going to like and others are not. Folks, that’s life. I really need to reevaluate my existence here if we are going to ban someone from this site for having an “opinion”! And for gods sake, what the hell is going on in this pissing match between shaker and leflaw?
GTOriginal	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 1:48 PM Gun Control. Abortion. The Middle East. DMusic Comments/Reviews. Many debates were designed to continue forever without being resolved until Armageddon. I have one question - what is wrong with respecting people and being decent? I have listened to artists that had problems in their stuff, one that comes to mind is a song with a 2-second skip in it. And it was a beautiful song, too. Did Gary go to this artist's public comment area and say, "Honey, you oughtta check your finished product before posting it?" NO I did not do that. Instead, I sent a DM note saying "There is a 2 second delay at 3:12 in your new track". To make a long story short, I helped this artist by pointing out a technical shortcoming without being disrespectful or pointing this glitch out to the rest of the planet. Common sense, common courtesy. Perhaps I didn't want the world to know my BPS were askew? Oh well too damn bad, tough old world. That mentality sucks people, and you know it. Having integrity does not equal kissing ass.
onewhodreams	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 1:54 PM Gun Control. Abortion. The Middle East. DMusic Comments/Reviews.
imemine	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 1:57 PM Gary, Nothing is at all wrong with your approach. In fact, I have the luxury in some cases of knowing who will accept criticism and who will not so I adjust my approach accordingly. That being said, there is nothing wrong with the other approach either---in my “opinion”.
sinai	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:04 PM i tell all the female artists their music sucks... women are sexy when they're telling you off
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:13 PM Onewhodreams: "Just to be clear I did ask Mr. Cruel if I could point him to some of what I think to be the best music here on dm, and he kindly replied, "I'd rather stick to listening to people's songs who ask for listens/comments." So, basically he is here to share his enlightened words of wisom, if asked, but not really to listen or find music that he might actually like. I think it would be more fair if you'd posted my complete reply, instead of that snipet. MY POST IN HER SHOUTBOX: "...And at this point, leading me to anyone's music will likely cause more flaming and such...so I'd rather stick to listening to people's songs who ask for listens/comments-at least that way I won't get the "I NEVER ASKED FOR THAT" thing (well...maybe I will, but at least it will be complete hooey)." If you'd have shared the rest of my response, I think most people would appreciate my position...esp. those who have been stating that would be best.
Hatsy	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:16 PM Well all I can say is I wholeheartedly agree with Onewhodreams' on her well written piece above. On the Shakergreen issue I think maybe his comments went a wee bit too far when he decided to state his opinion by siting that the owner of this site could not play music. Worse than that he said that Leflaw was wrong for this site. That's a pretty bad thing to say when the site would not exist without him. Next he stated that this 'tiff' was not something the community here should wish the world to see. Oh but it's ok for someone who has just joined the community 5 minutes earlier to begin a thread which says Dmusic is full of BS? That's not a great start to a positive relationship in anyone's opinion surely? And maybe some members of dmusic did feel the need to jump in and defend the place and say why we enjoy our time here, that's not disallowed in a free spirited community. If there is a clique or hierarchy that control this place or exclude people then I am not aware of it and feel no part of it. I have friends here, I have acquaintances, I sometimes listen to new uploads for a change and meet new music makers that way. I resented shakergreen saying our hello's are shallow. Who says my hello is shallow, who says anyone saying hello to me is shallow? The emoticons are another fun part of dmusic that I actually miss on other sites. It's fun. Yep, fun. It's escapism, it's cyberland, things are fun in cyberland, most of the time.... The other reason he may have been deleted is because he stated that thousands of members here are fake, only his opinion but a pretty rotten thing to say and highly unlikely that it is true. Then he says Leflaw is a shitty musician who owns a shitty website. Again, his opinion, but how would we deal with someone who came on our website and publicly said those things about our music/band and our property? I can't say I'd be too happy about that. An anti RIAA cry baby? Well someone has to address the issues of conglomerate power controlling all aspects of music and music products. This place is a breath of fresh air in the great scheme of things. In my opinion. I think that's a fair amount of reasons for the chap's account to be deleted. I think we can all accept CTBK's opinion because he is at least only imparting his advice to those who are asking for it. The worst thing that could happen now is if the community were to turn against the good things that are here for us all to enjoy, freedom of speech, mutual support and a place to find some of the best new music around, whether that music is audibly perfect or not, it is new and exciting. We will not be uploading to garageband.com because we cannot afford to, if we had money to spare we would be subscribing to dmusic, another good thing about this site, subscription is optional. Whilst we are giving our music away for free I am happy that we are not paying to do so.
sinai	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:19 PM it's like my dad always said "if you can't hit the bottom bang the hell out of the sides"
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:20 PM Imemine: "I do personally believe that we should all be able to state our “opinion”! So what if you have one out of 30 or so comments that you don’t particularly want to hear. It’s someone’s “opinion”! It certainly is no justification for pulling the comment, moving your page and even worse---banning someone from the site! Is this place some kind of an oligarchy because if that is what it is, I want nothing to do with it! Deal with it, ignore it, and perhaps learn from it but for gods sake move on people." Amen. I applaud your comments and thoughts there. "But it should be fine to leave your “opinion” if I have my music posted for people to comment on. Yes, there is a difference in “flaming” someone and leaving constructive criticism. I don’t believe that Cruel2BeKind actually “flamed” anyone. I read them all including the one he left me. In fact, the comments he left on my page were fairly accurate. Harsh realities but accurate---in MY “opinion”. " Thank you, sir. "So here’s the rub, you post your music here and ask people to listen to it. Some are going to like and others are not. Folks, that’s life. I really need to reevaluate my existence here if we are going to ban someone from this site for having an “opinion”!"
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:22 PM Treebone: "We will not be uploading to garageband.com because we cannot afford to..." It's free...you just have to listen to and review 15 pairs of songs (that's 30 songs, for you mathmatecially challenged individuals).
onewhodreams	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:22 PM Treebone - If you read SG's post you can see he asked for his account to be deleted. And yes, let's not all lose sight of what is good here. Plenty of people & plenty of music
sinai	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:23 PM "taste is taste, even if it is that of a dead skunk"
sinai	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:25 PM damn my dad was full of pearls of wisdom, it's a shame i never listened and turned out so shitty
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:30 PM Treebone: "Oh but it's ok for someone who has just joined the community 5 minutes earlier to begin a thread which says Dmusic is full of BS? That's not a great start to a positive relationship in anyone's opinion surely?" As I said earlier, my emotions certianly got the best of me with the title, and I should have been more concious of that. Regardless...the truth hurts, is the bottom line. I think my position on honest feedback in commenting on songs hits home...and clearly it's an issue or there wouldn't be so many people jumping in on this thread. If all you want are supportive, positive comments then ask for that..or better yet do what Imemine suggests, and ignore the comments you don't think are fair/accurate/appropriate/etc. Power is only granted to people BY YOU...it has none unless you allow it to affect you. Also, just because I "registered" the other day does not mean I haven't been a DMusic listener/reader for years (take note...that says YEARS)...vs. your 4 months of "registered" time (and I'm not trying to be snyde, just pointing out the facts). Regards.
imemine	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:34 PM OWD, I was referring to this comment from leflaw “And I did a "force email validation" on Cruel2bekind.” Whatever that means? If we ban this guy from the site, shame on us for being too weak to look in the mirror! His “opinion” is as valid as any one of us! I’m not getting in the middle of the pissing match with shaker and leflaw I just don’t understand it. Sinai, On the money dude! "taste is taste, even if it is that of a dead skunk" So do we commit genocide on the entire population of skunks?
Hatsy	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:36 PM Well thank you for the maths lesson Mr CTBK. It's a shame you cannot even say something informative without being sarcastic.
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:40 PM That was supposed to be humor. Sheesh...lighten up. Next time I'll put a slew of icons so you'll know I'm kidding around, gawd...
sinai	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:40 PM i can't believe we've taken 150 comments over two days just to arrive at: "enjoy what you want to, hate what you want to, it doesn't make your dick any bigger either way" shit i could have told you that in funny anecdote form in one post!
imemine	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:48 PM @ sinai---It doesn't?
leplume	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 2:50 PM I agree with Imemine on this one. Though I wouldn't like to be ripped a new one in a comment I think constructive comments are okay. And sinai! Well said as usual!
GTOriginal	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 3:09 PM OK, enough of this for me. My stand on this issue is that I do give honest opinions, but I do it in a respectful way. I don't dislike a lot of what I hear but if and when I do, I tell the person privately instead of trying to humiliate them or show my wizardry in their comments. In all fairness I must accept that everyone is not going to behave according to the same standards. Regarding C2BK's review of my tune, I only had an issue with one point he made. This was clarified privately & respectfully, so I am not challenging his remaining statements. To me, music is more of an art than a science, and there are definate technical flaws in what I do. Guess what I'm gonna keep right on doing it too, hopefully getting better with practice and such. On the topic of comments I act according to my own standards of decency and will continue to do so. There you go, this whole "being serious" thing is killin' me so I'll see you on the other side DM.
imemine	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 3:11 PM And that's ok too Gary!
hueseph	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 3:12 PM Amazing how quickly this thread turned into a witch hunt. Well maybe not a witch hunt. If it were person to person then it would be a witch hunt and likely a lynching. Mob mentality. Any psych students here? I'd like to get their opinion.
imemine	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 3:29 PM Which witch hunt? ....and what's Cryxan got to do with this?
dkeifer	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 3:34 PM Two times fifteen is thirty? Fuck that.
BOWILLIE	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 3:54 PM technical advice on uploaded music.personally i would'nt be able to mix myself out of a corner...every one has different levels of trial and error in that feild im sure..and there are people that put up songs that are quality enough in there own ears..and are satisfied with the effort they put in it..and any thing of mine that is on this site.. im very sure could be mixed a hundred different ways..and would come out a hundred different flavors..its all in what and how the person interpets what they hear..and being that our original tunes are just our attempt at making a decent enough demo..if any tune of mine ever got picked up by a eager exec...that it would be handled and produced properly by the people that exell in that bussiness..proffesional recording engineers....
FraDonaghy	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 5:17 PM wow. Ok, listen if you want, don't if you don't. Comment if you want, don't if you don't. I'm pretty drunk right now and couldn't give a fuck about any of this We're all just people, and music is a universal language we all understand. I love music. I love dmusic, I don't need to justify why. I love the people on dmusic, good and bad. What this is all about is trying to make other people think the way we do, and that is impossible - we have to learn to tolerate other people, whether we like their music or not, or their opinions or not. Bottom line, we're all going to die one day, lets just get along in the meantime.
kingo	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 5:21 PM I can't speak for anyone but myself. So I certainly can't say whether or not everyone else here lies when they leave feedback; but you still seem to be perfectly comfortable saying that, as that's the opposite of "honest feedback," on which you've got the market cornered. But for my own part -- I always leave honest feedback. I don't often leave negative feedback, because that's only useful if it's asked for, in my opinion. Contrary to what you seem to be saying, "honest feedback" does not equal "point out the flaws in what you hear." If I like a guitar part in a song and say so, that's being honest. If I don't mention that I think the song would be better without the cheesy drum machine, that's not dishonesty. That's giving positive feedback instead of negative. If you think it's dishonest, then you're being just as dishonest by only pointing out what you don't like and not what you DO like. Bottom line, for me, is you're pretty irritating. You wouldn't be irritating if you didn't so regularly try to put everyone here who doesn't agree with you under the big umbrella of dishonest, kiss-asses who can't take criticism. You seem to be constitutionally incapable of expressing your own views without putting down the views of others. In this case I'm in the group that keeps getting lumped under that umbrella, so that's why I keep jumping in here. And because I like to see myself talk. Have a :pickle:" id="132462">Hue: What are you talking about, witch hunt? Seriously, wtf? This isn't a mob, at all. Half of everybody's disagreeing with half of everybody else. A third of us are disagreeing with half of what two thirds of us are saying. Sixty percent of the time it works every time. Cruel2BKind: "Regardless...the truth hurts, is the bottom line. I think my position on honest feedback in commenting on songs hits home...and clearly it's an issue or there wouldn't be so many people jumping in on this thread." I can't speak for anyone but myself. So I certainly can't say whether or not everyone else here lies when they leave feedback; but you still seem to be perfectly comfortable saying that, as that's the opposite of "honest feedback," on which you've got the market cornered. But for my own part -- I always leave honest feedback. I don't often leave negative feedback, because that's only useful if it's asked for, in my opinion. Contrary to what you seem to be saying, "honest feedback" does not equal "point out the flaws in what you hear." If I like a guitar part in a song and say so, that's being honest. If I don't mention that I think the song would be better without the cheesy drum machine, that's not dishonesty. That's giving positive feedback instead of negative. If you think it's dishonest, then you're being just as dishonest by only pointing out what you don't like and not what you DO like. Bottom line, for me, is you're pretty irritating. You wouldn't be irritating if you didn't so regularly try to put everyone here who doesn't agree with you under the big umbrella of dishonest, kiss-asses who can't take criticism. You seem to be constitutionally incapable of expressing your own views without putting down the views of others. In this case I'm in the group that keeps getting lumped under that umbrella, so that's why I keep jumping in here. And because I like to see myself talk. Have a
sinai	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 5:26 PM i of course, just keep commenting here because i can't watch porn ALL the time...
kingo	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 5:28 PM Why not? Ooops, wrong thread.
sinai	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 5:30 PM because porn is a "sometimes food"
kingo	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 7:11 PM
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 9:14 PM Halaka: "So I certainly can't say whether or not everyone else here lies when they leave feedback... (cool, italicization) HERE is exactly what I said: "I just look around and see most people on this site oo'ing and ah'ing over each other...and it seems like it's more so they'll get listened to in return. I'm all for exchanging musical digits...but I won't lie to someone just to get a song heard." I never said "EVERYONE HERE LIES WHEN THEY LEAVE FEEDBACK"...so please don't try and twist my words around...If I think the song would sound better without the "CHEESY DRUM TRACK", then I'll say that...(but I won't say it like THAT...I'll use a bit more tact, which I do actually have). You call NOT saying it "positive feedback"...I call SAYING it the same thing. It depends on how you go about it, right? What's it going to harm someone to tell them what you HONESTLY feel (as long as it's not abusive)? You yourself just said you think someone's song would be better without it...not being malicious, I'm sure..but HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT YOURSELF. I don't think we share the same definition of what positive feedback is...and that might be the problem with many of the musicians here/the people on that side of this arguement...you think any criticism of your/anyone's song is "negative feedback"...when it's not. It's just someone's opinion..and in my case it's opinion based on fact. If I say the timing is off in a song, that's because it is. I don't think of that as "negative"..I think of that as "hey, I hear this in your song...did you intend for that to be like that? Did you realize that was like that? Have you thought about what that sounds like to someone else?" And nothing more. In psychology, "positive feedback" is using treats, praise, etc. to encourage a behavior. "negative feedback" is typically used when the behavior is already established and the point is to get the behavior to stop (typically thru some sort of either pain (whacking/spanking/electical shock) or such method. I think you're hijacking the terms and inappropriately using them in this context. "Positive feedback" can be me saying "The timing is off..." just as it can be "negative feedback" (IE: "God, my 5 year old could play guitar better than this"). It only becomes "negative" when it's clearly abusive/emotional instead of merely a factual statement. Is that the one I gave you yesterday? If it is, should I "never fucking forgive you"? Nah...I forgive you.
kingo	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 10:14 PM "and in my case it's opinion based on fact." Which. You know. Come on. That's not condescension?) I'm not sure whose :pickle: that is. I've got like 20 of them on the floor here. " id="132547">I didn't twist your words around. I quoted you, and I interpretted. You were saying, as you can see in the thing where I had the fancy italics, that you thought your position on honesty in comments was what got people writing messages. I'm saying that that's the same thing as saying everyone else is dishonest, which is the same as saying everyone else is lying. If that's not what you're saying, okay. Point taken. So then you've perfectly explained positive vs. negative feedback, and that's EXACTLY the way I was using those terms. I wasn't hijacking them, as I think they fit this context perfectly. Positive feedback is rewarding good behavior, just like you said. Saying "your timing is off" is not rewarding anything. Saying, "the tone you used on your guitar sounds cool to me," is rewarding a good behavior. Again, because I love kicking dead horses: I'm not saying I have a problem with your form of criticism. I sometimes have a problem with your delivery; regardless, personally I'd always welcome your form of criticism on anything I'm involved with. I've said this in a million threads before about this same subject. This isn't about what kind of criticism I like. This is about the fact that you treat the rest of us who don't agree with you like we're doing something wrong. (And -- I completely understand your point about "positive" vs. "negative" feedback. It's perfectly valid as far as I'm concerned. But it's all semantics; the facts are that some people take offense easily when you point out a shortcoming in their material. In a community like this one I don't see the point in offending people that way. Not that I'm not offensive in a million other ways. But if someone asks me for that kind of feedback, I'll give it to them where I can. Then of course you had to throw in the "and in my case it's opinion based on fact." Which. You know. Come on. That's not condescension?) I'm not sure whose that is. I've got like 20 of them on the floor here.
Thaspian	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 10:32 PM I only read the first post, so I'm not sure how this thread degraded. However, despite the foul presentation, I have to agree. I never see bad comments. Outside the hiphop section, where it's cool to do the my gang vs your gang crap and "REPREZENTZ!!1111oneone" and trash, I never see any criticism saying "I didn't like this." I never see anything bad. If I stream the worst song on here, I'll check the comments and the one part that was halfway tolerable will be what everyone was commenting on. Then I'll notice certain user's rants. They can go on them for godknowshowlong, and instead of getting a "STFU EMO BITCH" like it would at many other sites and IRC channels on the internet, they're supported to the point where it's bad. Where you're enabling them to continue a bad lifestyle instead of getting them to change their life and allowing them to continue fishing for sympathy and pats on the back.
hueseph	Date: April 24, 2005 @ 11:12 PM Amen Thaspian. I hear you.
onewhodreams	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 12:11 AM OK, so maybe we're all guilty of being too nice sometimes. When I first came to this site I was welcomed with open arms. I got comments that blew me away really, many undeserved, but what drew me into this community was the support and confidence my fellow peers and musicians seemed to have in me and my music. Since I've been here, my confidence is higher than it's ever been and my music has improved because of it. I don't know why we all look for the best in each others music and not rip each one apart, we just do. Maybe it's 'cuz we all know each other and don't want to hurt each others feelings. Maybe it's because we think that not everyone wants a pro type of critique because they are just creating music for the fun of it. Maybe not many people specifically ask for that type of critique. I only know of one person recently who actually asked for one and that was Val and she did it on the community shoutbox. So, If anyone wants a critique, ask away... I'm sure all of us, including Mr.Cruel have opinions that we could share to help you become a better musician.
hueseph	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 12:19 AM Not to say the community entirely sucks, but it could use a shot of reality. There are some cool people here. There are also some overly sensitive people here.
imemine	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 12:55 AM "Not to say the community entirely sucks" hueseph, careful babe. As I recall sir, you live in a glass house.... and OWD---bring it on, frankly I'm feeling way too good about myself lately!
imemine	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 1:00 AM Curious all, Is this good?…and by what standard? http://dbr.dmusic.com/
TameasDust	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 2:04 AM The overly sensitive haven't been raked through the coals lately ... as the coals are being redone after the last blowout ... er full scale war, but that is another story best left dead.
hueseph	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 2:26 AM Whatever. I've never had anybody make a suggestion or any criticism whatsoever about my stuff and I know some of it if not all of it is bad in some respect. I dare not say anything about anyone elses stuff. I've been through this before.
Woof	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 3:48 AM Gosh! What a lovely party! Always a pleasure seeing more of Halaka here at the forum, anyway... I've been watching this thread for a couple of days now, and I guess it's time to chime in. To Mr./Mrs./Ms. Cruel, I certainly am appreciative of your concern for the integrity of this community, and the artists in it. You seem very troubled by that, and it's certainly rare that someone would take time away from their own band time and web community, to address issues in a place where they haven't built a presence as an artist themselves. I can't help feeling that your approach, while well intentioned, might have several areas for improving the effectiveness of your mission. For starters, many artists here do indeed pass copies of works in progress among trusted friends in the community for honest feedback, before uploading a finished version for the public to comment on. Just as you've been careful to mention you depend on your band mates to be straight with you, so also does that happen here. It just doesn't happen in public, is all. Private notes are sent, feedback is given, and adjustments are made accordingly. Now I'm sure that, even though you depend on your band mates to be as harshly critical as possible, I'm also reasonably convinced that you wouldn't want them to give you said criticism in the middle of a live performance, to your public, over a microphone. That's the equivalent of leaving the type of critiques you've been mentioning, publicly on a band's site. If you really are concerned for some of the artists here, seeing them improve, and giving them information as to how to accomplish that, you could always send the band a private note, detailing your suggestions discreetly, and the result would be less likely to be perceived as taking a potshot at an artist. I do find it reassuring that you've agreed to comment by invitation only at this point. That's certainly a more considerate approach. As for artists lauding praise on bands you consider undeserving, well... the words and music are there for all to see and hear, once the comments have been posted, and I believe that the public and other artists here have enough intelligence and appreciation for quality, to a point where they'll be perfectly capable of deciding for themselves who's got integrity, and who doesn't. Let's say I come across a hypothetical artist whose music I think is critically flawed. Let's further speculate that said music is being praised to the skies by several other individuals. I probably wouldn't think much of those individuals' taste, and I'd most likely assume that they weren't any better than the artist they were praising, and so I'd probably pass on checking out their work, as well. You see, dishonesty in that regard carries its' own set of consequences already. The subject doesn't need to be beaten to death, to drive the point home. And personally, if I don't like somebody's music, or think it's "bad", I'll just move on to something I DO like anyway. I'm not here to search out the worst music on the web... who is? Anyhow, this has been interesting, seeing everybody's thoughts on this, even if it did start off a little awkwardly. I'm still asking that question, though... why would somebody take time away from everything else they're doing, to deal with issues, either real or perceived, at a site they're not an artist at?
JudgeMental	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 6:36 AM Like I said...I don't give a shit Do what ya like dude...if this is the only way you can get yourself the notoriety that your so desperate for...then carry on. I just dont see the point in continuing with something, even if its well-intentioned, when everyone's telling to to off. Still dont see the point of giving anybody your opinion when they just dont wanna hear it! If this site sucks so much...go to another site where they will appreciate your opinions - if you can find one.
Jesuszilla	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 7:49 AM The only way to settle this matter is a fight to the death. Or possibly a food fight, also to the death.
MindSculpture	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 8:43 AM I really, really love this thread Here... everyone gets one of these
jordanthegreat	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 8:49 AM "what a lovely tea party"
kingo	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 8:59 AM I'm so baffled. Really. I'm baffled. Are you scared to criticize stuff by people who specifically ask you for help? Have you asked anybody for specific help? It occurs to me here, avoiding work on a Monday morning, that this whole damned thing is about differing opinions about what the "COMMENTS" link on songs is for. As far as I'm concerned, it's for whatever each individual artist says it's for. Why do you want to take the time to say critical things to artists who aren't looking for that? What's the point? And if you want critical help on songs, can't you just ask for it? This can't be that hard to get around. Really, I just don't get it. And imemine: That song you linked to is exactly the kind of thing I go digging for. Hard to find. If they had more tracks up I'd be excited. Is it good? No idea." id="132595">"I've never had anybody make a suggestion or any criticism whatsoever about my stuff [...] I dare not say anything about anyone elses stuff." I'm so baffled. Really. I'm baffled. Are you scared to criticize stuff by people who specifically ask you for help? Have you asked anybody for specific help? It occurs to me here, avoiding work on a Monday morning, that this whole damned thing is about differing opinions about what the "COMMENTS" link on songs is for. As far as I'm concerned, it's for whatever each individual artist says it's for. Why do you want to take the time to say critical things to artists who aren't looking for that? What's the point? And if you want critical help on songs, can't you just ask for it? This can't be that hard to get around. Really, I just don't get it. And imemine: That song you linked to is exactly the kind of thing I go digging for. Hard to find. If they had more tracks up I'd be excited. Is it good? No idea.
imemine	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 9:22 AM Thank you Kingo! I don’t know if it’s good or bad either. That’s the point. Who am I to say? I have an opinion and that’s about as far as it goes.
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 9:40 AM HALAKA:"...avoiding work on a Monday morning.." You too, huh? "Why do you want to take the time to say critical things to artists who aren't looking for that?" If you don't mind, I'd like to offer an answer to that...Speaking for myself, it's because no one I've reviewed yet(other than those that asked me to) has stated anywhere what they are looking for specifically...they've done a blanket site-shout for listens and comments. If they'd said anywhere on their page/shout/etc "I don't want any feedback on the production quality or blah blah blah..." then my guess is they wouldn't get it (and I certainly wouldn't give it). "this whole damned thing is about differing opinions about what the "COMMENTS" link on songs is for.." I think that's certainly a factor. My initial frustration and reason for posting was the disparity between open, honest feedback and just general support. I spoke to several songwriters about this last night and one of them brought up a good point... Your child decides to take up the/an instrument you play. As you would expect, things don't come easily or naturally, and the child continues to practice and struggles and perseveres, etc. As they are learning, do you point out the things that they are doing that will hinder their progress? Do you not tell them things that could help improve their progress? Do you only act supportively and encouragingly? For those people here who truly only want to hear the "I love it!"'s, this doesn't apply, clearly, and I'm happy for them. It's when these same people moan about not getting listens and such...post a "PLEASE LISTEN TO MY SONGS!" without any other disclaimers, and then when they do and they don't get the warm fuzzies they wanted... That's one thing. The other is the general premise that people here seem to be DEFENDING ARMED TO THE TEETH this "way of life" that's seemed to crop up among the active users here that says "We will not tolerate people giving specific feedback about others' songs unless it's nice!" And my reply has and will continue to be: Why is it so important that everyone only leave comments along the lines of they LOVE your song? And even if the DO love it...why can't they point out some things that could make it even better that maybe you didn't think of? And beyond even THAT...if you already thought of that stuff or just plain don't care and simply want to post your stuff up to share it with others regarldess of any of what someone else might call "imperfections"...then for the love of pete just IGNORE THE COMMENTS and don't get all emotional about it. My horse is now glue.
kingo	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 10:02 AM Well now, we've both almost got our horses glued. I agree with a lot of what you've said. I'm not sure anyone's defending anything to the teeth, though; and if there are people doing that it's certainly not a majority. IMO your point is very valid, that if people are posting public calls to all comers, trying to get comments from anyone and everyone, then they should expect the good, the bad, and the ill-behaved to show up. Also, regarding ignoring comments and not getting emotional about them: again, some people don't want their band page here to reflect poorly on their material. That's another issue that's been discussed a lot; it's not necessarily that people don't want to hear the criticism, it's that they feel that it looks unprofessional to have random people saying, "THIS SUX0RZ!!" on their band page. Some people have asked for the ability to turn off public comments for this reason. I'm not one of those people; but I think it's a valid issue. AND: this horseglue tastes really good on the
Hatsy	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 10:07 AM I've just listened to two songs so far in the time I have been here today, they are Swampman 'Fade To Blue' which I always re-visit because we can't download so I can only hear it while onsite, I commented on my first listen, I love blues, I love the way he plays the blues, I love the song, I listen to it every week, I'm into the song, it's great, I can't hear a note I would change, the guy rocks my boat. I love it!! 2nd song today so far is a new one by Josyph Cryss (Saetan) I love the song, I love this guy's interpretation of art, I always visit his song Isadora every week, I hit it off with him as a fellow human being, we interact regularly over poetry mostly but sometimes mention songs, I admire him and always check out his new ones. He often comments on his production as he is quite the perfectionist and knows he has some areas 'he' wants to address, I don't want him to address anything, I like what I hear in his song den exactly as it is, I am a fan of Saetan and I doubt anything could change that. I often leave comments on his work as a written image, it's what his music gives me and it's how I commnuicate to him my enjoyment of his music. Other songs I feel different expressions for, but if I love a song I'll say so, despite any shortcomings in production, despite maybe being considered too nice, tough. That's me. If I wanted to spend my time seeking out flaws or to educate I'd be a teacher. I am here to enjoy new material, how I choose to comment on what I find is my own affair. And how others choose to comment is theirs. I don't expect return visits to our music, it will not be changed if I should get the hell ripped right out of it, it has been mastered and is not editable, if you like it great, thank you, if you don't well pass, if a song has no downloads, comments (good or bad) then it might possibly be bad, that's how I'd judge it. As I've said before if someone asks someone else for advice then great, I personally would rather not comment negatively in an open comment box. I did once or twice and felt bad afterwards but my observations were regarding not being able to hear something clearly, the vocals were not up loud enough in the mix I thought, on reflection I think I should have noted that person since the comment is there for all to read until the song comes down. We are all here to find some quality aspect of the difficult and multi-opinionated music business. Shall we get on with that and have some fun. Peace to all.
kingo	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 10:16 AM Nah, I'm here to argue. Well said, Treebone.
imemine	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 10:17 AM "My horse is now glue." What is one random piece of criticism in the mix of “you rock dude”’s? If we are truly adults here, we should be able to decipher for ourselves whether or not the material presented to us is professional or not or better, whether we LIKE it or not. For ourselves, not because someone said it was good, bad or that you need to turn up the vocals. Cruel2bKind, I understand your child analogy because I have a daughter that is struggling to become a viola player. However, we are not your children. I have never asked you to acquiesce but rather I have tried to give you a bit of insight about the way this place works and why. I rather find it refreshing that someone is willing to take their valuable time in order to help us all become better at what we do. I do wish that you would post a point of reference though or direct us to somewhere where we can hear what good music sounds like. :glue:
Hatsy	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 10:19 AM Amen
imemine	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 10:31 AM Oh, I forgot to welcome Woof to the party!
victorsskull	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 10:40 AM my balls itch
imemine	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 10:40 AM Please, someone scratch Victors balls!
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 11:06 AM Imemine: "I do wish that you would post a point of reference though or direct us to somewhere where we can hear what good music sounds like." I've not stated anywhere that I feel my music is "good" (nor that I'm the judge/jury for what "good music" is) in the terms that everyone will find it so or that it is better than others...I, personally, feel good about some of my songs (others I refuse to play live at shows still), and know what I'd like to fix about them in some cases (and in some I don't)and what I think works well about them (but there's plenty of times I've had people come up with WAY better ideas than what I've got/done)...but I don't think anywhere in any of this tirade of comments have I made the insinuation or statement that my musical recordings are "better" or "worse" than anyone else's (though many of the people who've commented here would like the opportunity to either A: Revel in the critiquing of my work or B: decide if I'm "musically competent" enough to back up the comments I make - basically it feels to me like they DO want to judge me because they feel I am judging others). Just because I have opinions about music doesn't mean I'm judging it against my own or placing it above/under/beyond/below/better/worse another's (music). My opinion comes from the years I've spent writing, producing, performing and recording...and it certainly doesn't mean I know it all (if I did...do you really think I'd be spending my time avoiding work here listening to music? I'd probably be Joe Ciccarelli listening to demos to find the next Aphex Twin to produce, or whatever). I participate in songwriting workshops to help better my songs thru critiques and others opinions...as well as the fun that comes from connecting with the other participants (and even seeing/hearing the one's that don't connect with my music..that's still helpful to me...esp. if they can tell me what it is about the song that they don't find appealing). In conclusion, like you...I just "call it like I see it". My glue is now just a viscous, gooey blob of semi-paste.
imemine	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 11:26 AM a point of reference like if George Martin were giving me advice it would hold more water than if George Costanza was critiquing.” That’s all. I really didn’t mean to upset you. Sorry. " id="132637">Listen, perhaps that came off wrong but I for one would NOT "Revel in the critiquing of your work" A lot of us here have similar experiences----believe it or not, I've been around a while. Long enough to say that I didn't even pick up an instrument for nearly 10 years. I played live semi-professionally for 10 years before that! I once owned my own little recording studio and sound company. I have a bachelor’s degree in music theory and a minor in communications where I was trained in the studio. That doesn’t make me any sort of an authority in taste though! As I mentioned in my shout---“ a point of reference like if George Martin were giving me advice it would hold more water than if George Costanza was critiquing.” That’s all. I really didn’t mean to upset you. Sorry.
freddemillio	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 12:02 PM Ime, thanks ever so much for that Demon Bunny Rabbits link. I love it. They rock. They are I think that their timing gets a little off in the middle and sometimes their harmonies aren't perfect, but man can they wail. It is a danceable tune and I give it an 8 and a half (which is also a great movie).
Apertome	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 3:31 PM Well, I'm late to this thread, as usual, and I don't have time to do a lot of discussion here, but ... a few points - There is a lot of overreacting that is be occurring in this thread. - I do not think that people need to post, or even make, their own music in order to be able to be critical of songs. I can't play the guitar, for example, but I can tell whether someone is playing one well or not. - A number of people on this site know me as someone who makes critical, but honest comments. I've found most people here do appreciate constructive criticism, but I avoid dissecting a song and telling them everything they've done wrong -- even if that would be constructive. Try to focus on a few things that could be improved, and a few things that are good (if applicable) and you'll get your point across without hurting anybody's feelings. Or, if they are hurt, they shouldn't have posted their music on a site where commenting is so important. Comments aren't just for praise, in my view, they are explicitly a place where you say what you think of a song, good or bad. So, in a nutshell, what I'm saying is: 1. Artists: don't be offended if someone posts a critical comment. Read it, take to heart what's being said, and if you don't agree, that's fine, just let it go. 2. C2BK: You might want to be a little more tactful in your comments. I read them, I didn't find them offensive, but I think you may have gone too far with the criticism; I'd appreciate comments like that, but not everyone does.
leflaw	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 5:28 PM Nobody's getting banned from the site. Shaker Green wanted bluntness. Ok. He asked to be banned from the site, I banned him. He wanted harsh criticism? Ok--- he sounds like another John Lennon wannabe. Let him go listen to Oasis the rest of his life. As to C2BK, there is nothing here indicating he or she is a musician, but we take fan's comments seriously too, although more seriously if you are a SUBSCRIBER as opposed to a GUEST. The community can dump on rude guests. You have my permission. And by the way, I don't put "Nice!" in anybody's comments unless I really dig the track. And I don't criticize unless I think I can help. Strong silent type, usually.
leflaw	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 5:32 PM PS: Miles Davis hated Ornette Coleman. So What?
leflaw	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 5:43 PM Ps: lesterchambers.dmusic.com/raymiles
warmguns	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 6:02 PM This crap is still going on???
pog	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 6:48 PM ....If I have a constructive criticism for a fellow musician, I generally pull them aside and tell them in private. I certainly don't jump up on the stage and publically humiliate them, or write a bad review and post it in the local music magazine. This isn't American Idol, it's a community of human beings, with feelings and who often pour a lot of heart and energy into their productions. We have a note system for the very purpose of discussing potential improvements one could make to a song, so I don't believe there are any excuses for posting harse comments in public... unless you're an arrogant asshat...
Cruel2bKind	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 7:45 PM Warmguns: Yes, sorry. Pog: "...unless you're an arrogant asshat..." Congratulations on your attempt to stir the pot again. For myself, and my horse which at this point has been reborn, thankfully I'd imagine from the horse's perspective, as a moth and is heading for a lightbulb...I've said it all more times than I think I'd meant to... For leflaw: "As to C2BK, there is nothing here indicating he or she is a musician, but we take fan's comments seriously too, although more seriously if you are a SUBSCRIBER as opposed to a GUEST." I see...so my comments are taken more seriously if I give you my money? Riiiiiggghhhhtttttt. I'm going to break my rule of commenting with emotion and say that's got to be one of the most inane things I've heard in this whole arguement. What difference does THAT make? Me being a subscriber means I carry more weight when I review or make comments on someone's song? Regarding my status as a musician...if you can't take my word for it, c'est la vie. I don't think anyone needs to be a musician to either appreciate or critique music. They simply have to have some frame of reference for their comments (and some knowledge base doesn't hurt, either...but that can be book learned, as is the case often with theory, as opposed to practical experience) and be objective. That, of course, is only my opinion. My poor damn glue wouldn't even pass for Elmers anymore.
Hatsy	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 8:12 PM 'What a difference a day makes, 24 little hours' Did I sing this crap or did I do a fine job of it?
onewhodreams	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 9:13 PM Here's some for this thread Mr.Cruel has not made any public comments on anyone's music since the 6 or so he made the first few days he arrived. I think that says enough about him, at least in that respect. Now, who has the real glue?
pog	Date: April 25, 2005 @ 10:04 PM I didn't say you're an arrogant asshat. As mux said, talk about overreaction !
leflaw	Date: April 26, 2005 @ 12:19 AM I know a joke. There was this freeloader who barges into a party and starts criticising everybody, then farts....
moam	Date: April 26, 2005 @ 1:34 AM God damn it all I am too lazy to read all of this Could someone fill me in on what is going on Sweet

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