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Who thinks that instead of combatting violence with violence, something else might be better?

CowgirlBebop	Date: September 11, 2002 @ 9:48 AM Hm... Don't want to sound too much like a hippie or something---but here it is, September 11th again, and I am thinking, "Hey, why are we maybe getting into a war NOW?" I mean, you remember the lives that were lost last year, and it can be easy to say, "Yeah, let's kill 'em ALL, if they look evil and they aren't like us." But perhaps we should be setting a better example than that......
CowgirlBebop	Date: September 11, 2002 @ 9:49 AM Ha, that's funny, cos my icon has a gun in it.
GrooveTonic	Date: September 11, 2002 @ 9:52 AM umm, is that a gun in your picture?
CowgirlBebop	Date: September 11, 2002 @ 9:55 AM Like I SAID. It's FUNNY. but you see, Cowboy Bebop is an ANIME and it takes place in 2071. And the reason why everyone needs guns is BECAUSE everyone used up the Earth fighting each other and everyone had to leave and go live in space. And space is dangerous. So it's RELATIVE.
TranceAction	Date: September 11, 2002 @ 12:33 PM I do understand all the destinys that were ruined, families left behind without dad or mom or both, but lets face it. How much do we actually care bout all the ruined fates in middle east ? How many times do you switch to another channel or turn to talk with a family member/friend ? I do. So why do we drown ourselves in selfpity bout 9/11-01. Why not say, "Hey lifes goes on. Lets move on. Okay we have paided them back now. Why do more war ?". In a smaller scale, I can tell U that last I lost my brother (36 years) + my youngest nephew (9 years old) in traffic. OH boy - did that hurt!!!! That is almost a year ago (november). Of course the first half year or so, I was divastated, but now ? Hey like I said, "Life must go on. The world dosent stop.". Of course - the pain, the loss, the meaningless is still there, and I will never get rid of it. But I dont dwell in self pity nor do I wish to kill the one who drove the other car (he survived). It wasnt his fault nor my brothers. It was fate. The wrong place at the wrong time. I can imagine that it must be the same feelings, the victims lives through now. And people are different, but I dont understand why you need to dwell with it. (I know it was bigger than a traffic accident - after all - I am not that stupid). But if you look at it pr. person does it differ that must ? I dont think so. It is excatly the loss, the why, the meaningless action, happening that everyone who lose someone sits with afterwards. And it was only "4.000" persons who lost their lifes. How many have lost their lifes in the middle east since it began ? I do believe in diplomacy, sanctions, whatever means other than war. Sorry if I hurt someone here. Thats not my intention, since I know how much it can hurt to lose someone you love more than life (and I did with my brother). T.A" id="18212">With a chance of hurting some feelings here, let me say sorry beforehand! Excactly my words, CowGirl. Here comes the "maybe hurting thing". I do understand all the destinys that were ruined, families left behind without dad or mom or both, but lets face it. How much do we actually care bout all the ruined fates in middle east ? How many times do you switch to another channel or turn to talk with a family member/friend ? I do. So why do we drown ourselves in selfpity bout 9/11-01. Why not say, "Hey lifes goes on. Lets move on. Okay we have paided them back now. Why do more war ?". In a smaller scale, I can tell U that last I lost my brother (36 years) + my youngest nephew (9 years old) in traffic. OH boy - did that hurt!!!! That is almost a year ago (november). Of course the first half year or so, I was divastated, but now ? Hey like I said, "Life must go on. The world dosent stop.". Of course - the pain, the loss, the meaningless is still there, and I will never get rid of it. But I dont dwell in self pity nor do I wish to kill the one who drove the other car (he survived). It wasnt his fault nor my brothers. It was fate. The wrong place at the wrong time. I can imagine that it must be the same feelings, the victims lives through now. And people are different, but I dont understand why you need to dwell with it. (I know it was bigger than a traffic accident - after all - I am not that stupid). But if you look at it pr. person does it differ that must ? I dont think so. It is excatly the loss, the why, the meaningless action, happening that everyone who lose someone sits with afterwards. And it was only "4.000" persons who lost their lifes. How many have lost their lifes in the middle east since it began ? I do believe in diplomacy, sanctions, whatever means other than war. Sorry if I hurt someone here. Thats not my intention, since I know how much it can hurt to lose someone you love more than life (and I did with my brother). T.A
Svensta	Date: September 11, 2002 @ 1:43 PM I don't wanna be spamming my responses so I will just stick to the other thread about war and all this
NeoFlash	Date: September 11, 2002 @ 4:26 PM In my High School, the only thing that gets through to people is a nightstick. Violence asks for more violence.
nintendomaster	Date: September 11, 2002 @ 7:57 PM why can't nations negociate? We need to stop with this violence shit cause somebody will get hurt eventually. I could of wished for world peace into my own thread
NeoFlash	Date: September 11, 2002 @ 8:15 PM I wish that that could happen, but ***** like the taliband won't let it happen...
nintendomaster	Date: September 11, 2002 @ 8:43 PM true that
Fiji	Date: September 11, 2002 @ 9:05 PM The United States has PROOF that Iraq has harbored terrorists and lets them stay and train in their country. Should we wait for another 9/11 or Pearl Harbor to attack? NO. we should go in there and take care of business. One of my friends said hes against us going over to other countries and take action. The entire continent of Europe sat back and let Hitler do his thing. No one said anything. Look what came of it. Millions of lives lost. And he didnt even have the weapons that Iraq has in there possesion. And as far as us setting a better example, how about we just set an example...of them. We need to set the bar on cracking down of terrorism. If we sit back, who else will step up. Britian...maybe. Germany...ha. Canada...please. Anyone else...NO. America has the step in and kick some ass. NO ONE else but Britain wants to help us. You think those countries are going to go to war with Iraq. The US gov. isnt dumb. They know when somethings up. The US Navy is 15 years ahead of the public technologically. They have to power and capability to "sense" these things. I think the point im really trying to make is...Should we wait around for another attack on America? I say no." id="18264">But if we didnt fight violence with violence, nothing with be fixed. An evil man in Iraq over there is constructing weapons of mass-destruction. Should we say, "Hey Sadom (spelling?), can you please not build those weapons anymore, it scares us." He would laugh until the cows came home. The United States has PROOF that Iraq has harbored terrorists and lets them stay and train in their country. Should we wait for another 9/11 or Pearl Harbor to attack? NO. we should go in there and take care of business. One of my friends said hes against us going over to other countries and take action. The entire continent of Europe sat back and let Hitler do his thing. No one said anything. Look what came of it. Millions of lives lost. And he didnt even have the weapons that Iraq has in there possesion. And as far as us setting a better example, how about we just set an example...of them. We need to set the bar on cracking down of terrorism. If we sit back, who else will step up. Britian...maybe. Germany...ha. Canada...please. Anyone else...NO. America has the step in and kick some ass. NO ONE else but Britain wants to help us. You think those countries are going to go to war with Iraq. The US gov. isnt dumb. They know when somethings up. The US Navy is 15 years ahead of the public technologically. They have to power and capability to "sense" these things. I think the point im really trying to make is...Should we wait around for another attack on America? I say no.
TranceAction	Date: September 12, 2002 @ 4:10 AM And as I recall now we are at it. Who was it that dropped two nukes over Japan. That must still top the list of all mass murder occurrences in the world today. So who do you nuke next, cause conventionel warfare dont do it ? T.A." id="18303">Yep thats right. Lets fight violence with violence. It sure as hell has solved the conflict in Middle East - right ? As for WWII. You are so wrong. Britain was the first ones to fight back. You on the other hand - only entered because of Pearl Harbour, so take that, "We saved the world from Hitler" statement, and put it where the sun dosent shines. And as I recall now we are at it. Who was it that dropped two nukes over Japan. That must still top the list of all mass murder occurrences in the world today. So who do you nuke next, cause conventionel warfare dont do it ? T.A.
Fiji	Date: September 12, 2002 @ 4:29 PM the point i was trying to make was the Britain and all the other countries waited to long to do anything. He should have be taken care of first. And because they did nothing. a lot of people got killed...A LOT. Hitler could have been stopped before matters got out of hand. The procrastination led to death. Im not saying that Britain did nothing, they did. But the time it took for them to act was way to long. What i meant to say was that Britain is the only country behind us. No one else wants get involved. And i commend them for that. But would they go in alone. I think not. US doesnt care whose behind them or not, we have a job to do and we are going to do it regardless.
TranceAction	Date: September 12, 2002 @ 6:04 PM Yep ! I know that. But do it alone. I dont want to be a part of it (although our goverment is going too - no doubt). And now try to answer my question: Lets fight violence with violence. It sure as hell has solved the conflict in Middle East - right ? You have a business to do ? As long as you just remember who you hit. Remember a wedding in Afghanistan, where aprrox. a whole family was wiped out by your bombers ? Why ? Because it was a tradition, that they fired their handweapons into the air, and thats where your bombers suddenly thought - hey we are under attack, although it was miles away from the nearest US soldier. Remember the gulf war, where saddam used the civilians as bomb shields - however without your knowlegde, so you killed numerous civilians ? Just keep that in mind my friend - when you go over there and "do your business!". How many percent civilians is acceptable loss during a war eh ? How many civilians have died during Middle East, because YOU support Israel ? An you dont even have a clue why SOME muslims (actually they are insane=fanatics) hates you ? Take the bible in your hands while your boys are over there and cry out, "In the name of god!" and you are no better than those fanatics. War and violence dosent solves a conflict - it prospone it for a while - but it is an endless spiral of violence. Why cant anyone in this world grap that ? T.A." id="18368">Quote, "US doesnt care whose behind them or not, we have a job to do and we are going to do it regardless.". Yep ! I know that. But do it alone. I dont want to be a part of it (although our goverment is going too - no doubt). And now try to answer my question: Lets fight violence with violence. It sure as hell has solved the conflict in Middle East - right ? You have a business to do ? As long as you just remember who you hit. Remember a wedding in Afghanistan, where aprrox. a whole family was wiped out by your bombers ? Why ? Because it was a tradition, that they fired their handweapons into the air, and thats where your bombers suddenly thought - hey we are under attack, although it was miles away from the nearest US soldier. Remember the gulf war, where saddam used the civilians as bomb shields - however without your knowlegde, so you killed numerous civilians ? Just keep that in mind my friend - when you go over there and "do your business!". How many percent civilians is acceptable loss during a war eh ? How many civilians have died during Middle East, because YOU support Israel ? An you dont even have a clue why SOME muslims (actually they are insane=fanatics) hates you ? Take the bible in your hands while your boys are over there and cry out, "In the name of god!" and you are no better than those fanatics. War and violence dosent solves a conflict - it prospone it for a while - but it is an endless spiral of violence. Why cant anyone in this world grap that ? T.A.
theguppykillers	Date: September 12, 2002 @ 6:42 PM if we have to be the world police to stop assholes from killing us then so be it. if some one came to your door with a bottle full of anthrax and said he was gonna kill you all with it would you stand there and say please dont do that. HELL NO! I would jump on the terrorist bastered and show him how an american takes care of his own.
NeoFlash	Date: September 12, 2002 @ 6:52 PM A: saddam hussein can be bombed right now. B: he is developing a nucleur warhead to kill us all. C: he is still alive. Does anyone see anything wrong here???
theguppykillers	Date: September 12, 2002 @ 9:05 PM we should have got rid of him along time ago.
Fiji	Date: September 12, 2002 @ 9:10 PM good analogy Guppy. Like i said before..."Hey you with the nulear war heads. PLEASE dont bomb us. It wouldnt be very nice. Thank you." How well would that fly. Let me tell ya something, it wouldnt fly at all. If someone had a gun pointed at your head and you knew that they were planning on shooting you, what would you do? Huh? Would you pull out your gun before them and shoot or would you just stand there. Exactly. If you had prior knowledge that they wanted to kill you, you would shoot. Once again, are we supposed to hang back and wait for another Pearl Harbor. I think not. Or how about another 9/11. Would that be smart. We cant negociate, we have already tried that and nothing came of it. Tell me, what would you suggest. Should we "wait" it out. Hell no. Waiting only delays the inevitable (like in Europe during WW2). After yall decided to do something, it was too late. It was to far out of your hands and hell broke loose. Well, i dont want to sit here and wait for that to happen to America. Thats pointless.
TranceAction	Date: September 13, 2002 @ 9:20 AM And so does the history repeats itself again and again and again and..... Its funny as you wont answer my question here, so let me rewrite it: Lets fight violence with violence. It sure as hell has solved the conflict in Northern Ireland - right ? But hey - who gives a shit, as long as we get to kill someone right. I dont know who to fear most you or them.... E.O.D. T.A.
CowgirlBebop	Date: September 13, 2002 @ 11:56 AM Great, now I can't tell what the hell ANYONE is saying. I don't know whos's agreeing or disagreeing. Wish I'd never started this. Mope Mope Mope
Fiji	Date: September 14, 2002 @ 3:02 PM I dont see how you should fear us. Someone has threatened our way of life, and we are going to act upon it. And as far as your question goes, I have no idea whats going on in NI...sorry.
TranceAction	Date: September 15, 2002 @ 5:46 PM I fear you because you are dangerous to the world. You are not going after Saddam because he has attack as with the terrorists, which I totally agree with everyone - they are a mencae, to say the least. But Saddam does not threat your way of living as little as Zimbabwe is. The only reason to go after Saddam is because you cant stand the bastard and THAT - my friend - frightens me! Who is next then !?!? Quote, "And as far as your question goes, I have no idea whats going on in NI...sorry.". Who does ? It has been going on for centuries. Thats excatly my point. If violence solves conflicts, then tell me, why it isnt solved with arms ? When has a conflict EVER been solved with military instead of prosponing it or without creating a new one ? Another matter is, that I suddenly remembered suddenly, that it was the US who couped Chile back in the early 70s, and gave Chile - Pin_fucking_chet (Pinochet). Im sure that the chilians are most grateful for that today... You may get Saddam. But who do put in his place instead. A reincernation of Pinochet or worse !?!? You see - thats where the third world should be frighten of you, because they never know what a brutal bastard they get instead, and quite frankly - it frightens me a bit too, on behalf of the third world population. And you still wonder why someone outthere hates you !?!? T.A." id="18850">Ok! Busted! I cant help it. I must respond! Quote, "I dont see how you should fear us.". I fear you because you are dangerous to the world. You are not going after Saddam because he has attack as with the terrorists, which I totally agree with everyone - they are a mencae, to say the least. But Saddam does not threat your way of living as little as Zimbabwe is. The only reason to go after Saddam is because you cant stand the bastard and THAT - my friend - frightens me! Who is next then !?!? Quote, "And as far as your question goes, I have no idea whats going on in NI...sorry.". Who does ? It has been going on for centuries. Thats excatly my point. If violence solves conflicts, then tell me, why it isnt solved with arms ? When has a conflict EVER been solved with military instead of prosponing it or without creating a new one ? Another matter is, that I suddenly remembered suddenly, that it was the US who couped Chile back in the early 70s, and gave Chile - Pin_fucking_chet (Pinochet). Im sure that the chilians are most grateful for that today... You may get Saddam. But who do put in his place instead. A reincernation of Pinochet or worse !?!? You see - thats where the third world should be frighten of you, because they never know what a brutal bastard they get instead, and quite frankly - it frightens me a bit too, on behalf of the third world population. And you still wonder why someone outthere hates you !?!? T.A.
TranceAction	Date: September 15, 2002 @ 5:53 PM I agree with you. That so you know. T.A." id="18853">Quote, "I don't know whos's agreeing or disagreeing.". I agree with you. That so you know. T.A.
theguppykillers	Date: September 15, 2002 @ 11:59 PM we dont start wars! we end them
TranceAction	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 2:08 AM I have the solution for the prevention of hijackings, and at the same time getting our airline industry back on its feet. Since men of the Muslim religion are not allowed to look at naked women we should replace all of our female flight attendants with strippers. ´ Muslims would be afraid to get on the planes for fear of seeing a naked woman, and of course, every businessman in this country would start flying again in hope of seeing a naked woman. We would have no more hijackings, and the airline industry would have record sales. Now why didn't Bush think of this? Why do I still have to do everything myself? Sincerely, Bill Clinton". T.A." id="19001">Here is a little joke. "Dear Sirs; I have the solution for the prevention of hijackings, and at the same time getting our airline industry back on its feet. Since men of the Muslim religion are not allowed to look at naked women we should replace all of our female flight attendants with strippers. ´ Muslims would be afraid to get on the planes for fear of seeing a naked woman, and of course, every businessman in this country would start flying again in hope of seeing a naked woman. We would have no more hijackings, and the airline industry would have record sales. Now why didn't Bush think of this? Why do I still have to do everything myself? Sincerely, Bill Clinton". T.A.
TranceAction	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 2:09 AM Just keep telling yourself that! E.O.D for real!" id="19002">Quote, "We dont start wars! We end them.". Just keep telling yourself that! E.O.D for real!
NeoFlash	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 2:13 AM LMFAO! Please help implement this idea, if that happens, I'll be the first one on delta airlines again!!
CowgirlBebop	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 8:32 AM hmmmmm.
TranceAction	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 11:08 AM Now now Cowgirl, We can introduce the same with men (I assume you represent the females here, based on your hmmmmm reply) lol
Fiji	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 3:43 PM we arnt going to war because qoute, "we cant stand the bastard". you obvioulsy have no idea whats going on on the other side of the world. He has threatened to use weopons against us. But did we go to war then...NO. We sent in spies to scope it out. And guess what...they have weopons that could blow America away. This isnt the first time US had had contact with Saddom, we have been trying to negociate our way through a lot of problems for years. But he has croosed over the line from "menace" to "crazy". We cant just sit here and let some guy in the Middle East destroy parts of our country because people dont want us to go to war. Tell me this...(and i want a direct answer) Should we wait for him to attack us? Honestly. Should we wait for someone to kill 3000 more of our people before we do anything about it. What about Pearl Harbor? We thought that nothing could or would happen to us...and look what happened. Do you have any idea how many lives and ships were lost because we "thought" we were in the clear. That just doesnt make sense to me at all. Wwe know for a fact that he had weopons and that he has said he wants to use them...HELLO. If thats not reason enough to got o war, what is. What would they have to do for us to be ligit. in going into war? (another direct answer please) Would it take the killing of 3000 more, or how about 4000, or 5000. And that whole Zimbobwe thing doesnt fly. Iraq has weopons and threatened to use them...thats enough for me to go to war. And as far as the Middle East goes...would "talking it over help" Honestly, do you think it would help?
losthadon	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 3:46 PM let's all just be happy and make some killa music!!!! if violence is expressed in our tracks, do not be offended. everyone loves it when Joe Peschi cusses in his movies and y'all know you love Arnold when he slaughters 2000 bad guys with 2 guns in one minute!!!
TranceAction	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 6:01 PM Yes he has threathend you, as he has threathend everybody in the world (only exception is Russia and China I think). If a threat is enough, then I must say I am amazed to be alive considering the cold war between you and Sovjetunion back then. Why didnt you nuke them ? Because they had nukes, just as Saddam will get or someone else will. Dont think otherwise - believe me! So who is next ? Quote, "Should we wait for him to attack us?" Ok you want a direct answer ? Then my answer will be yes. Why you ask ? For one reason and one reason only! He has never attakced you and he never will! Why not ? Because he knows damn well, that the world will turn against him, even the chinese will wake up. Remember them ? They condemed his attack on kuwait too. They didnt helped per se with troops or anything, but they werent excatly using their veto right in UN either. Does that answer your question ? Quote, "Would it take the killing of 3000 more, or how about 4000, or 5000.". Why dont you ask the japanese that one. You are the ones who nuked them twice. How many lifes were lost and destroyed up through the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s as direct cause in form of deformed babies and god knows what ? Did that justified Pearl Harbor ? Dont dare talk to me about Pearl Harbor. That was nothing compared to what YOU DID! Dont dare talking to me about how grateful I should feel with you, when you with the other hand support Israel, so they can kill, torture and perform their mayhem agianst the palenstinians (Not that I support them either. Dont think that!) Get real! You want to attack Saddam. Fine! You have my blessing, if you stop supporting other suppresing goverments. If you start punking the chinese to leave Tibet! If you are so into this protecting of our freedom thing, then start to help the third world to level the indifferences that exists today, instead of defining things like the Kyoto treaty. Make the earth a better place to live FOR ALL, and perhaps that would reduce those idiots! That could be a step in the right direction for a solution! And as I have said before, I dont believe in war, because it is proven through history again and again and again that it does not solve the conflict as well as more military does not prevent wars! Thats why I am agianst a EU Army. T.A." id="19095">Quote, "He has threatened to use weopons against us.". Yes he has threathend you, as he has threathend everybody in the world (only exception is Russia and China I think). If a threat is enough, then I must say I am amazed to be alive considering the cold war between you and Sovjetunion back then. Why didnt you nuke them ? Because they had nukes, just as Saddam will get or someone else will. Dont think otherwise - believe me! So who is next ? Quote, "Should we wait for him to attack us?" Ok you want a direct answer ? Then my answer will be yes. Why you ask ? For one reason and one reason only! He has never attakced you and he never will! Why not ? Because he knows damn well, that the world will turn against him, even the chinese will wake up. Remember them ? They condemed his attack on kuwait too. They didnt helped per se with troops or anything, but they werent excatly using their veto right in UN either. Does that answer your question ? Quote, "Would it take the killing of 3000 more, or how about 4000, or 5000.". Why dont you ask the japanese that one. You are the ones who nuked them twice. How many lifes were lost and destroyed up through the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s as direct cause in form of deformed babies and god knows what ? Did that justified Pearl Harbor ? Dont dare talk to me about Pearl Harbor. That was nothing compared to what YOU DID! Dont dare talking to me about how grateful I should feel with you, when you with the other hand support Israel, so they can kill, torture and perform their mayhem agianst the palenstinians (Not that I support them either. Dont think that!) Get real! You want to attack Saddam. Fine! You have my blessing, if you stop supporting other suppresing goverments. If you start punking the chinese to leave Tibet! If you are so into this protecting of our freedom thing, then start to help the third world to level the indifferences that exists today, instead of defining things like the Kyoto treaty. Make the earth a better place to live FOR ALL, and perhaps that would reduce those idiots! That could be a step in the right direction for a solution! And as I have said before, I dont believe in war, because it is proven through history again and again and again that it does not solve the conflict as well as more military does not prevent wars! Thats why I am agianst a EU Army. T.A.
Fiji	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 8:46 PM i never said i agreed with all the other stuff that the US has done previously...dont put words in my mouth. I dont support A LOT of things that my government does. But that doesnt mean i cant support them on this. And yes, i think Iraq could and would attack us if action isnt taken now. One year ago and some days, we all watched and lived through the worst attack on American soil ever. We said the same thing about them.."They will never attack us because they know what will happen". No one thought that anyone would have the balls to attack us, and they did. They pulled it off and we cant find the bastard that did it. It can be done. And that attack was nothing compared to what Iraq can do if or when they decide to do so. So to make a long story short: Im not for a lot of the things that my government does. But i am for us going into Iraq!
creativetim	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 9:58 PM You're talking about two different things, 9/11 was a attack by suicide bombers basically. Saddam Hussein is a military leader, a man who only cares about himself. Therefore he won't risk his life like the people who were behind 9/11, he isn't stupid! I agree with Trance on the grounds that if we clean this place up, less and less of this senseless and useless violence will exist. If we are the world police, which is what some people here have pretty much said, then its our duty to better the world right? I mean this is just like a presidential compaign, if you give the voters what they want, they'll vote for you. If the US helps these poorer countries and establishes ties with them, they will back us when needed. I think the US is going into this with their pants down.
Fiji	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 10:22 PM i think that these guys no what they are doing. You might have taken a government class in school and read up on some stuff, but these guys have the best advisors in the world working for them. I trust there experience over your "opinion"...sorry. They dont hire HS drop-outs to make these decisions. These guys no whats going down and up...everywhere. They know what effects this war could potentially have on our economy and im positive they have thought it through. you guys know whats going on in the newspapers, but that is a limited source. These people im congress arnt dumb.
creativetim	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 10:26 PM No you're right they hire high school drop outs to do the deed, to pull the trigger. As far as the US knowing everything. HA! That's funny they didn't know that a raid of Japanese bombers were going to bomb the shit out of Pearl Harbor nor did they didn't know that four planes would be hijacked on 9/11 and used as human guided missiles.
Cryxan	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 10:32 PM Billy Mitchell predicted a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor back in 1925... just thought I'd throw that in.
silverwolf121	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 10:42 PM If we don't stick up for ourselves, then we'll be the dweeb in school that gets his ass kicked by the bigger guys. Plain and simple.
creativetim	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 10:46 PM lol @ Cryxan. It's not always strength that wins.
Fiji	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 11:20 PM that Pearl Harbor...one situation in 1945? This is 2002 and we have the technology to do almost anything. We didnt have the tech. back in the 40's to foresee an attack. So that example is out the door. And as far as 9/11, the gov. had prior knowledge of the whole situation. They didnt know that it would be this grand. And thats something you cant even stop. I could go right now and bomb a building if i had a bomb. Anybody could. Thats something that cant be stopped or predicted. And as far as congress is concerned, these guys are very well educated people. Id like to see a HS dropout in congress. Can you name one. Name one that is dumber than you, just one. What is that...you cant? Aww, would you look at that. These guys arnt idiots that flip a coin. They have knowledge that you only wish you had. They can watch a guy peeing in Russia, you think they cant see an attack coming. The US congress in devised of people that have every known useful resourse on there side. And you have???a newspaper. The math just doesnt add up. How can you sit here and say that your right. You have nothing to back your opinion. And i know...you dont have to back up YOUR opinion, but it helps. What makes you think that we arent going to be attacked? Im curious.
creativetim	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 11:35 PM In April 1992, the House's ethics committee released the names of 325 current and former members of Congress who during the previous three years had written checks at the private House bank against accounts that had no funds to back up the checks. The overdraft privilege was not illegal, but it was a perk of office that was not available to most ordinary citizens, and it helped fuel public disapproval of the political elite. REFERENCE URL: http://www.facts.com/cd/v00043.htm And I never once said that I was right and I never said that the US wasn't going to be attacked." id="19178">But you have to realize in 1941, not 1945, they thought they had the best technology too! And I know they can't see an attack coming, because they were shitting their pants 9/11. And you can stop something like 9/11. Remember AFTER it happened, they grounded every single plane? Well, since they had so much knowledge why didn't they ground every planes around 7 AM that morning? The US Congress is full of idiots as is the US government in general. Idiots that make laws and look out for their party and it's interests. As far as finding one that is dumber than me: In May of 1989, Democrat Jim Wright of Texas became the first speaker of the House ever to be forced to resign from office in midterm because of a scandal. Wright stepped down after the House's ethics committee charged him with 69 violations of House restrictions on the acceptance of gifts and outside income. The most prominent charges concerned income that Wright had received in the form of unusually high royalties from a slim book, made up of his speeches and random observations, that had been published by a longtime friend and campaign aide. In February 1991, the Senate Ethics Committee issued reprimands in the so-called Keating Five case, involving five senators accused of lobbying bank regulators on behalf of Charles H. Keating, Jr., owner of the defunct California-based Lincoln Savings and Loan Association. Keating, who subsequently was convicted of securities fraud and imprisoned, had helped raise a total of nearly $1.5 million for for the five senators' political campaigns. The committee found "substantial credible evidence" of misconduct by Democrat Alan Cranston of California, who retired the following year. In April 1992, the House's ethics committee released the names of 325 current and former members of Congress who during the previous three years had written checks at the private House bank against accounts that had no funds to back up the checks. The overdraft privilege was not illegal, but it was a perk of office that was not available to most ordinary citizens, and it helped fuel public disapproval of the political elite. REFERENCE URL: http://www.facts.com/cd/v00043.htm And I never once said that I was right and I never said that the US wasn't going to be attacked.
Fiji	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 11:47 PM EVERY single job in the world is going to have people like that...its called the human race. Lookat any job ever created and you will find that. in every counrty and continent. And yes, those few are a disgrace, but does that mean that they didnt know waht they were doing in office. And as far as Pearl Harbor goes, the "best tech. that they had" is beside the point. That was 50 years ago and now we have better tech. capable of finding out anything about anyone. I dont think you have any idea how suffisticated(sp?...ironic, i know) the military is. They are 15 years ahead of us. 15! And that mixed with well-educated and experienced men in the big white building, creates a mixture that is more than qualified to make logical decisions. So can you honestly say that we should wait for someone to attack us, again!!! Iraq had been funding these terrorists. What makes people think that they arent still doind that. And the gov. also has reason to believe that other terrorists are planning future attacks. I think if you had family in the WT buildings, you would feel different.
creativetim	Date: September 16, 2002 @ 11:53 PM The point you tried to make previously was that people in office are smart and you asked me to find one dumber than me. I found a couple. And as far as the Pearl Harbor thing goes, that is a totally legit point. My point is that in 1941 the US still had the cocky attitude it has now. They think they know everything and they tell the public that or at least give them that impression, but that is a falsity. The government as REASON to believe. Habeas corpus is all I have to say.
Fiji	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 12:08 AM You know nothing about the gov. These are all assumptions. Would you say that you would be better qualified to make decisions in congress than any previous ocngressmen? And your right...they tell the public that. THE PUBLIC. The public isnt supposed to know anything. If we knew where the US was with tech., so would every other country. Would that be smart to give away our secrest...NO. And where are you getting these ideas about "falsity". Are you reading another comedians book or something. I dont understand where your getting your sources from. Is there some "inside" guy feeding you info through your mail? Or is it oyur personal opinion that the gov. has falsity in there defense. Can you say that the public knows everything about the governments technology capabilities. And if the answer was no, then why are we arguing. We know as much as they tell us. You dont know, they could have people on Mars(they probably dont). All im trying to say is that you dont know. The government had night-vision goggles 13 years before the public knew about it. 13. And people like you back then were probably saying the same thing.."the government has falsity"
creativetim	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 2:17 AM That is so dumb because everyone in Congress, the HoR, the white house and everyone in our government is SUPPOSE to be a representation of the public. So the public isn't suppose to know anything? So how come we vote if we don't have "anything" to base our opinions on? How come this site exists: http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/ ?? If you really belive that the public shouldn't know "anything", then you have no idea what the idea of democracy is about. And as far as giving away secrets all the bad guys have to do is watch the news and see what we're planning to do next. Falsity, despite the fact you may have never seen it, is a real word and is not something that I picked up from a comedian book, but it is in Lenny Bruce's autobiography. All I'm trying to prove is that, the government doesn't know everything. In no way is this government perfect. And no I don't have some "inside guy" telling me this, I read. I keep my eyes open and by doing that I question what I read and don't take whats handed to me without looking into it. And I never said that the government had a falsity in their defense, you need to reread my statements I said that the impression they give of knowing everything is a falsity. And no I cannot say that public knows everything, they don't, but they know more than "anything". You have this perfect image in your head that America is some great land that has no flaws ... its not. It has tons of flaws, one that sticks out in my mind is the fate of Rubin Carter. Open your eyes and stop believing everything you see on the news and hear from some army recruiter." id="19236">"Would you say that you would be better qualified to make decisions in congress than any previous ocngressmen?" That is so dumb because everyone in Congress, the HoR, the white house and everyone in our government is SUPPOSE to be a representation of the public. So the public isn't suppose to know anything? So how come we vote if we don't have "anything" to base our opinions on? How come this site exists: http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/ ?? If you really belive that the public shouldn't know "anything", then you have no idea what the idea of democracy is about. And as far as giving away secrets all the bad guys have to do is watch the news and see what we're planning to do next. Falsity, despite the fact you may have never seen it, is a real word and is not something that I picked up from a comedian book, but it is in Lenny Bruce's autobiography. All I'm trying to prove is that, the government doesn't know everything. In no way is this government perfect. And no I don't have some "inside guy" telling me this, I read. I keep my eyes open and by doing that I question what I read and don't take whats handed to me without looking into it. And I never said that the government had a falsity in their defense, you need to reread my statements I said that the impression they give of knowing everything is a falsity. And no I cannot say that public knows everything, they don't, but they know more than "anything". You have this perfect image in your head that America is some great land that has no flaws ... its not. It has tons of flaws, one that sticks out in my mind is the fate of Rubin Carter. Open your eyes and stop believing everything you see on the news and hear from some army recruiter.
creativetim	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 3:38 AM Fiji said: "You might have taken a government class in school and read up on some stuff,..." You have voided your own point. :D" id="19243">Fiji said: "You know nothing about the gov." Fiji said: "You might have taken a government class in school and read up on some stuff,..." You have voided your own point.
CowgirlBebop	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 8:27 AM erm---just mentioning the fact that now the US isn't satisfied with Iraq's little statement. Anyone else think it might be the oil???
TranceAction	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 2:25 PM Excatly my point. Look! We agree on going after terrorists right ? Then why did this Saddam issue suddenly popped into Mr. Bushs head? Because your administration thought, "Hey Guys! Weve got all the support we need on this thing! Lets go after Saddam now!". But boy - were they wrong! Quote,"we all watched and lived through the worst attack on American soil ever!". Yes you did. No doubt. But YOU CANT SUDDENLY TAKE ALL YOUR ANGER AND FRUSTATION OUT ON SOMEBODY ELSE for crying out loud! Jesus! Here is some facts: SADDAM DIDNT ATTACKED YOU NOR WILL HE. HE ONLY WANT NUKES AS LEVERAGE! OBL WAS THE ONE (OR SO ITS SAID) WHO ATTACKED! That you cant find him, does NOT justify attacking Iraq! Jesus! You are sos into this revenge eye for an eye thing arent you. Just like every bloody republican are. I saw this coming from day one Mr. Bush were elected. All he has done seeing from where I stand is making this place a WORSE place to live as Reagan did. You name the rest! USA is not so perfect! A everyone who lives in a democracy has a right to know what the gov. is doing every f.cking single day, because they represent US. They dont have any rights to think they are above the any laws, morals, ethics or other soft spots in this world. T.A." id="19271">Quote, "You're talking about two different things, 9/11 was a attack by suicide bombers basically. Saddam Hussein is a military leader, a man who only cares about himself. Therefore he won't risk his life like the people who were behind 9/11, he isn't stupid! Excatly my point. Look! We agree on going after terrorists right ? Then why did this Saddam issue suddenly popped into Mr. Bushs head? Because your administration thought, "Hey Guys! Weve got all the support we need on this thing! Lets go after Saddam now!". But boy - were they wrong! Quote,"we all watched and lived through the worst attack on American soil ever!". Yes you did. No doubt. But YOU CANT SUDDENLY TAKE ALL YOUR ANGER AND FRUSTATION OUT ON SOMEBODY ELSE for crying out loud! Jesus! Here is some facts: SADDAM DIDNT ATTACKED YOU NOR WILL HE. HE ONLY WANT NUKES AS LEVERAGE! OBL WAS THE ONE (OR SO ITS SAID) WHO ATTACKED! That you cant find him, does NOT justify attacking Iraq! Jesus! You are sos into this revenge eye for an eye thing arent you. Just like every bloody republican are. I saw this coming from day one Mr. Bush were elected. All he has done seeing from where I stand is making this place a WORSE place to live as Reagan did. You name the rest! USA is not so perfect! A everyone who lives in a democracy has a right to know what the gov. is doing every f.cking single day, because they represent US. They dont have any rights to think they are above the any laws, morals, ethics or other soft spots in this world. T.A.
TranceAction	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 2:28 PM Should say, "because they represent US, the public. And thats goes for all democracies in this world!". T.A." id="19272">Correction! Quote, "because they represent US" Should say, "because they represent US, the public. And thats goes for all democracies in this world!". T.A.
TranceAction	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 2:35 PM How do you know if you are right by the way. I mean, you obviously know that creativetim isnt right ? T.A." id="19273">I dont give a shit of what anyone knows or dont knows. I dont give a shit of how sofisticated hardware anyone has. I dont give a shit if anyone has been on the bloody moon for that matter. What I do give a shit about, is whether I know what my gov. is doing or not doing, and if you want me to support you in this Saddam thing, you have to do better than, "Ohh! But he can get nukes and besides - he is a bastard. Ohh! Almost forgot. He may attack us, but I dont know!". How do you know if you are right by the way. I mean, you obviously know that creativetim isnt right ? T.A.
Fiji	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 5:11 PM Tim, stop putting words in my nouth. I dont beliebve the gov. is perfect, by all means. And my recruiter had told me nothing. And yes, i KNOW falsity is a word. You just get all this shit from comedians and you take there view points every time. Lik,e that whole sports thing about hockey. i see it all the time. You have a limited amount of sources. And how can you say that the gov. doesnt have a lot of shit that they havent told the public about...HUH!!! How??? Howd o you know this. and thank you for proving my point. Enemies of us would "watch TV" and find out everything if the public knew this stuff. Open YOUR eyes Tim, you dont know enough to argue. Your opinions are backed up by nothing but a few newspapers and some "websites". My g-pa WORKED in the Pentagon and HE SAID they there was SOOOO much stuff the public had no idea about. Nightvision????????????? Just one example. Think aobut that before you comment again.
creativetim	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 6:48 PM I don't know if you're attacking me or if you're trying to prove a point, but I don't see the point you're trying to prove. I mean you have no idea what I know and what I don't know. To me it looks like you think you have supreme knowledge about the inner workings of our government and this and that." id="19381">I quoted you Stepehen! That's not putting words in your mouth, it's taking them word for word out of your mouth! No I don't. I form my own opinion based on what I read. I question what I read and read up on it. That thing about hockey was a joke. And I have the internet, so I have unlimited amount of sources. I know the government witholds information. Every year reports get un-classified and are available to the public, that's withholding information is it not? And I'm not disagreeing that the US government doesn't tell the public stuff, they don't! My argument about the public knowing anything stemmed from your thoughtless comment: "The public isnt supposed to know anything.". All I'm saying is that public has every right to know something, they shouldn't be a bunch of animals being led by strings and told what to believe, but sadly that is the reality of the situation. I don't know if you're attacking me or if you're trying to prove a point, but I don't see the point you're trying to prove. I mean you have no idea what I know and what I don't know. To me it looks like you think you have supreme knowledge about the inner workings of our government and this and that.
dogpile	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 8:25 PM Violence is a part of life even in the animal kingdom. You need good and bad to keep things in balance. Too much of a good thing can turn bad, too much of a bad thing is not good either. Its like a negative and positve charge. The U.S. Government is getting too arrogant. As a superpower they want to be the world's police. It's time for another world war to clean up things and put every country in it's place.
creativetim	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 10:07 PM I think that the world needs a checks and balances as the US government does, but that is a very idealistic proposition because not everyone wants to be helpful, ie. Iraq.
Fiji	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 10:52 PM I quote creativetim "You have this perfect image in your head that America is some great land that has no flaws". ANd im sorry, that IS putting words in my mouth. IF you had read one of my previous responses, you would have discovered that i said, "I dont support A LOT of things that my government does. But that doesnt mean i cant support them on this." That means that i dont support a lot of things that the government does. Where did you get that i think America has no flaws? And when i said withhold stuff from the public, i mean very classifies stuff. You said, and quote, " And I have the internet, so I have unlimited amount of sources"...sorry big guy, that isnt an unlimited resource. You have no idea about all the secret stuff that the goverment is doing. Id like to see you find that on the internet. you are ignorant to the fact that you dont have all the facts that you think you have. This has been fun but i tihnk im safe to say that this argument is going nowhere fast...lets agree to disagree.. So, did anyone catch the Cowboy game on Sunday?
creativetim	Date: September 17, 2002 @ 10:56 PM The above quote just states that you disagree with the government on some levels, no where in the entire thread have you said that you have a certian perception of the government, but the way you make it out to be some great nation with the smartest guys and stuff gives off that vibe. The internet is as much as I can get my hands on though because it's run by the US government. I'm sure there are tons of stuff I don't know about because the US government witholds information. To me that isn't right, but thats reality. The argument has been skewed into millions of different directions, but I don't give up. Sorry.
adaeus	Date: October 1, 2003 @ 3:04 PM Somethings can only be beaten by force. Somethings are better beaten through peace... I don't think theres a single solution to any problem? Sometimes agression is the only way to stop other agression. Look at Gandhi, he always acted peacefully, hoping others would take into his views of peace... trying to change the views of agressive people, by causing them to feel compassion, and understand how much of a beating Gandhi was willing to take, just to obtain peace. (ok im kinda bs'ing, i dont know if im wrong) Meh, I just ramble...but I think that some things cannot be swayed or appeased, and that is when war happens. But, some things can be swayed, can be appeased, can be shown a way to coexist despite whatever extreme diversity between the two! PEE! I barely read this post, too much rambling on, just like this... chau
billhudson	Date: October 1, 2003 @ 5:12 PM So in the end peace is always the better way. Still Pickin' Bill Hudson" id="63694">Well in the long run I always think peace is the better way. Just ask a vet who has seen lots of combat. Now keep in mind I am an X-monk so I will always look at it this way. But I like to think of it in tearms of a bar fight. I have been playing in bars for a longtime and sometimes, well ya get those few that just want to fight. Its kind of a sport to'em. And I think it is dumb as hell. And when ever one of theses guys throw their weight around, they always say,"ya want to fight?". I just look at them and say, "Hell I don't care" and try to stand up to them. 9 times out of 10 it always comes down to them just wanting to talk to someone. And if anyone out there see the film, Band of Brothers ,you will hear the real guys say,"if there is a better way we can settle our differences". So in the end peace is always the better way. Still Pickin' Bill Hudson
Karmatic	Date: October 1, 2003 @ 5:34 PM I'm thinkin not. But hey, I'm a violent kinda guy. If you'd notice, the reason SWAT doesn't train with the military any more is because SWAT gives you WAAAAAAAY more leeway with violence. Here's a scenario. Multiple terrorists inside a bank with hostages threatening lives if they don't get a plane to Mexico. SWAT negotiates whilst trying to find a way to get hostages out and/or bullets in the heads of the hostage-takers. Military on the other hand goes with my preference of...blow the building, count the bodies.
Jesuszilla	Date: October 1, 2003 @ 5:37 PM It's funny because wasn't it the monarchy that wanted to ally with Hitler? They're all a bunch of useless aristocratic bar stewards. For Queen and country! My arse! Hey, the Queen, I didn't vote for you, why don't you give us our money back you useless cow! Call that a Corgi?! Shut it horse face! Go back to the dinosaur age where you belong! Come and eat shit with the rest of us! No, go and eat shit in the dinosaur age, yeah, do that instead! The trouble is that when Her Majesty dies She will split into 2 and She will be twice as rich!
Jesuszilla	Date: October 1, 2003 @ 5:43 PM I do realise that adds nothing to this discussion but... but... The Queen... and the thing... with the... where's my coat?
CowgirlBebop	Date: October 1, 2003 @ 6:07 PM Where did you FIND this thread? I read an article in Newsweek today that said that the Iraqi's favorite politician is JACQUES CHIRAC! And their favorite country is FRANCE.
Expose	Date: October 2, 2003 @ 7:37 PM
CowgirlBebop	Date: October 2, 2003 @ 7:39 PM nice post, thasp.
sinai	Date: October 2, 2003 @ 7:40 PM yes, settle it with each involved country supplying a team of six models... a cream corn wrestling ring!
TameasDust	Date: October 3, 2003 @ 12:15 AM Legalize marijuana and nobody will care.
CowgirlBebop	Date: October 3, 2003 @ 10:13 AM I personally like sinai's idea. Can they be male models?

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