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America's torture bill

SimonWaldram	Date: September 30, 2006 @ 6:25 AM Please read this article from the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/opinion/28thu1.html?_r=1&oref=slogin Americans: what the hell is happening to your country? I fear it may have just changed forever in a very terrible way indeed.
SimonWaldram	Date: September 30, 2006 @ 6:41 AM From the LA Times 2 days ago; "Congress may give the president the power to lock up almost anyone he thinks is a terror threat." http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-ackerman28sep28,0,619852.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail
SimonWaldram	Date: September 30, 2006 @ 7:48 AM The Daily Show examines Bush's powers to legalize torture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIybRwBDhQo
HalloweenBat...	Date: September 30, 2006 @ 10:03 AM if anyone agrees with this they should be put through all the new "legal" shit
zedsalt	Date: September 30, 2006 @ 11:23 AM Common sense tells us that the U.S. agreed to The Geneva standards out of a desire to see to it that American soldiers, pilots, sailors, etc. who are captured receive a specified level of humane and dignified treatment. It wasn't the only reason, just the simplest and most pragmatic one. The argument that we should discard such important standards because someone ELSE ignored them...it's so contrary to reason that I chose my words poorly by referring to it as an "argument". It's stupidity beyond explanation. It's going to be another couple of years before we can put someone in the oval office who values the lives of our fighting men and women. That's one of the reasons this year's election is so important.
TameasDust	Date: September 30, 2006 @ 12:43 PM They are just putting in print what they have been doing in other countries for many many years
SimonWaldram	Date: September 30, 2006 @ 12:57 PM But now they have the power to do in America...to Americans.
SimonWaldram	Date: September 30, 2006 @ 1:32 PM This is from The Nation (09/28/06): "The bill--which was opposed by humans rights rights groups and a majority of the legal profession--would create military commissions to prosecute terrorism suspects, would grant the president flexibility to decide what interrogation techniques are permissible and generally, "Give the executive branch a tremendous amount of unfettered power to detain people who otherwise are here in the United States lawfully," according to CBS legal analyst David Cohen. Our only hope now to live in a land where the President can't decide to torture someone is the Supreme Court. But don't hold your breath. I don't mean to go all torture, all the time, but as the inimitable Molly Ivins wrote today, "With a smug stroke of his pen, President Bush is set to wipe out a safeguard against illegal imprisonment that has endured as a cornerstone of legal justice since the Magna Carta" was codified in 1215. Yesterday, the House passed GOP compromise detainee legislation which would strip terror detainees of basic legal rights, but there's still time to call the Senate about bill S.3930--IF you act immediately. The deal President Bush struck with Congress is a betrayal of the best of America and would make this country a distinctly less democratic place. No citizen should remain on the sidelines in the days ahead." (from: http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20060928/cm_thenation/4125379_1) Come on people, get angry about this! Don't stand back and just let this disgrace happen to your wonderful country.
Israfel	Date: September 30, 2006 @ 1:35 PM I absolutely agree with zed...this makes the next election even more important. This administraton apparently can't think there way out of a paper bag. Truly saddening, and ultimately, angering.
AgentMGD	Date: September 30, 2006 @ 2:38 PM what's happening? we're one small step away from a thing called National IDs (yes, it's in the works now) where everyone who is an American citizen and/or resident will be required to have this ID to travel about in the states - something like what communist Soviet Union used to have. they are already talking about chipping passports to track movements of ALL American citizens/residents as they travel aboard ...children now need their own passports in order to enter the US when visiting Mexico and the Carribean Islands. don't want to sound like a "woowhoo" fear freak and scare ya but ...it's time to wake up, citizens of the United (Socialist) States of America because if dubya has his way with the torture bill - who knows what's next for us "regular" citizens.
AgentMGD	Date: September 30, 2006 @ 2:44 PM Come on people, get angry about this! Don't stand back and just let this disgrace happen to your wonderful country. sorry, Simon, most people like my Republican-loving aunt (who supports dubya in ALL he does) believe dubya is doing this nation a great service by spreading democracy to the Middle East and fighting the "terrorists" in this war against them. they also believe that any good American who DOESN'T support the president, administration and his policies are traitors.
LegoBreaks	Date: October 29, 2006 @ 11:01 PM i saw this video once, it was a training exercise and video for american soldiers, It involved US troops going and dragging civilians (props) out of there houses and arresting them for the hell of it. The civilians were told to yell out stuff such as 'you can't do this to me, I'm an American, and I'm not a terrorist, and quote the bill of Rights, The soldiers were told to ignore there calls.
EchoMinor	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 12:23 AM what's happening? we're one small step away from a thing called National IDs (yes, it's in the works now) where everyone who is an American citizen and/or resident will be required to have this ID to travel about in the states - something like what communist Soviet Union used to have. they are already talking about chipping passports to track movements of ALL American citizens/residents as they travel aboard ...children now need their own passports in order to enter the US when visiting Mexico and the Carribean Islands. don't want to sound like a "woowhoo" fear freak and scare ya but ...it's time to wake up, citizens of the United (Socialist) States of America because if dubya has his way with the torture bill - who knows what's next for us "regular" citizens. [/QUOTE] perhaps we need to become more strick like this, i for one believe we do. i feel we almost have way too much freedom in this country. bring me IDs, torture our enemies, its all fine by me IMO. and if anyone dislikes that, that is simply their opinion, as this one is mine. a world without struggle is a world without progress.
EchoMinor	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 12:45 AM now before anyone jumps at me for saying we have too much freedom, im comparing this country to third world countries in the case of freedom. and we have been torturing people for decades and decades...we even do it to our own criminals in interogation. we honestly could have it ALOT worse!
GeneHilbert	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 9:33 AM Waterboard the shit out of them..... I don't see you whiners bitching about Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, or Venezuela’s human rights issues. Oh course not..... That's not fashionable.... is it.....?
witherdin2ition	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 10:24 AM A lot of Americans are angry about the current goings on in Congress and international relations. Don't assume we're not angry. Unfortunately we won't see just how angry the whole of the country is until election day.
zedsalt	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 11:25 AM "Waterboard the shit out of them....." I assume that you're including our own military personnel and "contractors" in that statement. You're obviously not alone in that. In reaction to the cattle call for Blue Nevus' project, one gent expressed the view that joining the military involved surrendering one's humanity. Hmm, maybe being opposed to torture is NOT the more fashionable attitude...
jewsus	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 12:32 PM i feel like a lot of people not from america don't exactly understand our country's government. firstly, just because we've "elected" officials, it doesn't mean we like them, or agree with their decisions. i use the term "elected" because, honestly, our way of electing is ridiculous. GW didn't even win the majority of the popular vote in his first election. but that doesn't matter, because for some reason we still use the old system of the Electoral College. even though its clearly shown it doesn't represent the population's votes correctly. secondly, everyone in Congress are a bunch of scandelous douchebags. just watching the back and forth battle of commercials last night, for state officials, made me disgusted. one rep voted to cut funding for school's and give it to big oil companies. the other, voted for an illegal bill that gives casinos cash from taxes that came from our pockets, because he gets funding for his elections from a major casino. we honestly don't have much of a choice during elections. all the candidates are riddled with scandel. the only official we've got here in wisconsin that's cool is Herb Kohl. and unfortunately that's the way it is with the majority of states. one good official amongst a crowd of selfish bastards. just because our country claims to be "home of the free", it doesn't mean our government isn't just as corrupt, if not more, than any other. its the government that portray's the image of a perfect legal system, not the citizens. we know our government sucks, but they won't admit it to the rest of the world. but anyway, this bill is ridiculous. and the sad thing is, it doesn't even matter who votes it down in congress, because they'll just vote for another ridiculous bill that raises taxes or cuts funding for education.
LegoBreaks	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 2:43 PM If you really want to know whats happening and whats about to happen, it's worth researching up the new world order. Your goverment is trying to take away all civil liberties till every one of us is a complete slave. This is not just America thou, this is the whole world. They are trying to create a world much like the Orwellian totalitarian state. America at the moment is being run by the same people who ran the nazi party. And goverment's getting in without even winning an election, isnt this a dictatorship? wtf? so much for democracy. The important thing thou is to hang on to the truth and love, because like most stories ever written, good will prevail in the end.
HalloweenBat...	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 6:53 PM America is giving away all their rights in the name of freedom.
witherdin2ition	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 7:16 PM And again, it's something that many Americans (such as myself) are just completely sick over. I could go into it further, but as I'm at work and it would probably set me off on a political time-bomb, I'll hold off for a bit.
imemine	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 7:35 PM Why would anyone want to torture Bill? He's a nice guy------oh wait...............
witherdin2ition	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 7:50 PM
Distilled1	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 8:45 PM If you really want to know whats happening and whats about to happen, it's worth researching up the new world order. Your goverment is trying to take away all civil liberties till every one of us is a complete slave. This is not just America thou, this is the whole world just more...fuel to the fire... And again, its not politics or the politicians not republican or democrat, they all are working for the same power the owners of the federal reserve! its not even just the it is the world http://www.dmusic.com/forum/thoughts/25080 go watch it its fact!
Distilled1	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 8:47 PM oh and we have the power we need to stand up, speak up and fight for our freedom(.)
Fraser	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 8:52 PM I agree with everything the states is doing.
Fraser	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 8:52 PM Just in case you guys dont realise that's a joke... It is
Distilled1	Date: October 30, 2006 @ 9:28 PM Yeah sure Fraser
witherdin2ition	Date: November 2, 2006 @ 1:12 PM What's scary is there are actually people who just blindly lap up everything the gov't throws at them. It's so 1984.
Distilled1	Date: November 2, 2006 @ 1:18 PM yes witherin2ition it is and its damn scary
GeneHilbert	Date: November 2, 2006 @ 1:58 PM "I assume that you're including our own military personnel and "contractors" in that statement"....... Hell No…….! I'm not including them, but I’m not excluding them either. If they are conspiring with the enemy, in cases of treason then yes, include them.... If anyone has plans to kill you or anyone else in this country... Or anywhere in the world for that matter. If water boarding saves lives I'm all for it……
witherdin2ition	Date: November 2, 2006 @ 6:55 PM The problem with torture is, people will say anything to make it stop. Even if they don't KNOW anything.
HalloweenBat...	Date: November 2, 2006 @ 8:06 PM On 2nd Nov 2009, GeneHilbert said: "I assume that you're including our own military personnel and "contractors" in that statement"....... Hell No…….! I'm not including them, but I’m not excluding them either. If they are conspiring with the enemy, in cases of treason then yes, include them.... If anyone has plans to kill you or anyone else in this country... Or anywhere in the world for that matter. If water boarding saves lives I'm all for it…… so basically the torture of anyone is ok as long as they are against ur country. this would apply to any country i presume?
GeneHilbert	Date: November 3, 2006 @ 12:02 AM Do you need your dick cut off or what......? Wake the fuck up dumb-ass.
EchoMinor	Date: November 3, 2006 @ 1:53 AM we have been torturing people for centuries, countries have been torturing people for centuries...face it, just asking questions has NEVER been enough. if i have a good feeling someone is holding onto information that could save lives, and help maintain justice and peace...if asking him is not doing any good to get the info out of him, you can damn well be sure im going to either A. beat him with a phone book, B. punch him in the mouth a few times.... C. dunk his head in water a few times! people hate to tell the truth! and sometimes we need to force it out of them. all of these things we have been doing for centuries and we have no reason to be weak and stop.
zedsalt	Date: November 3, 2006 @ 12:15 PM Even if one has no particular distaste for torture...as difficult as it is to imagine someone that deranged...he or she still has to admit that it's simply NOT EFFECTIVE. Torture never yields reliable, useful information. So, you simply don't care who gets tortured or how? Fine- you're entitled to your opinion. But wouldn't you prefer to HAVE information that could save lives (including, potentially, obviously, your own)? Maybe not. Maybe the amount of self-loathing required to have that much disregard for human beings being treated humanely is tantamount to suicidal desires. If so, my suggestion would be to get a job with Haliburton.
K3VIN	Date: November 3, 2006 @ 12:18 PM anyone who thinks torture is ok should beput through a trial run.
jewsus	Date: November 3, 2006 @ 1:22 PM well, sometimes torture does yield proper information FourCal. but that's assuming the person actually knows something. and that's a problem because sometimes the people DON'T know any information. and even if they do know, that's to stop them from lying? the "torturer" doesn't know if the information he's getting is correct, and the person being tortured will say just about anything to get them to stop. its just not a very useful way of going about things.
EchoMinor	Date: November 3, 2006 @ 3:32 PM well in terms of terrorism i think it does. the whole washboarding thing has brung us names of people conspiring to execute a terrorist attack, and we found that type of info by dunking their heads under! and sense when should we be humane to criminals and our enemies, rarely do they show humanity towards us. sorry not into that whole turn the other cheak thing.
witherdin2ition	Date: November 3, 2006 @ 6:09 PM On 3rd Nov 2009, jewsus said: well, sometimes torture does yield proper information FourCal. but that's assuming the person actually knows something. and that's a problem because sometimes the people DON'T know any information. and even if they do know, that's to stop them from lying? the "torturer" doesn't know if the information he's getting is correct, and the person being tortured will say just about anything to get them to stop. its just not a very useful way of going about things. Yes, exactly.
K3VIN	Date: November 3, 2006 @ 6:30 PM fighting fire with fire never ends up good in such violent circumstances
HenriRoger	Date: November 3, 2006 @ 7:06 PM The terrorists are winning ,they are leading all the free world to change it's way of life ,with less an less freedom,,it's not only bombs and attacks ,it's a psychological war too , with lots of manipulations . Going to more security everywhere is loosing freedom , we are all suspects when taking a plane ... If we give up with human rights with prisoners rights we just tell the extremists they're right , that our values are weak and lies .
EchoMinor	Date: November 4, 2006 @ 12:03 AM well hell this is why i became a musician instead of a politician
K3VIN	Date: November 4, 2006 @ 12:44 AM On 3rd Nov 2009, HenriRoger said: The terrorists are winning ,they are leading all the free world to change it's way of life ,with less an less freedom,,it's not only bombs and attacks ,it's a psychological war too , with lots of manipulations . Going to more security everywhere is loosing freedom , we are all suspects when taking a plane ... If we give up with human rights with prisoners rights we just tell the extremists they're right , that our values are weak and lies . the terrorists arent donig this.. this is the leaders of your country doing it themselves... they are using the terroists as an excuse.
leedsquietman	Date: November 4, 2006 @ 6:39 AM Henri is from which has not participated in Iraq or Afghanistan !! However, as Henri knows, there are enough problems to handle in France right now with the rioting from poverty stricken immigrants etc. No country is free from radicalism and fundamental extremists of one kind or another but I don't think the answers on this issue are as simple as a one sentence statement.
HenriRoger	Date: November 4, 2006 @ 6:49 AM It's not simple at all and I agree one sentence is not enough . I just wrotte my opinion as we are all still free to do For how long ? ...
zedsalt	Date: November 4, 2006 @ 11:05 AM "the whole washboarding thing has brung us names of people conspiring to execute a terrorist attack" Really? When was this? I mean, we're told that all of the latest, biggest attacks were thwarted using information gathered by wining and dining the informants, promising them positions of power and influence in new governments, etc. Which near miss...or near misses...was/were averted by info gained from...what is it? "Washboarding"? Christ, that sounds even worse than waterboarding...
witherdin2ition	Date: November 4, 2006 @ 1:34 PM And really, so what if we get names of terrorists? Get rid of those, more will just pop up. Terrorism isn't a clearcut enemy. Anyone can be a terrorist.
LegoBreaks	Date: November 4, 2006 @ 5:58 PM The only real terrorists in my eyes are the goverments that are terrorising all their citizens into submiting their liberties in the name of freedom. Wtf 'giving up liberties for freedom' that is so double-speak???? The terrorist is just a vague enemy that goverments are using as a excuse to make people think their country is constantly under threat. Which is then used as an excuse to spend the majority of the budget on the military industry. People seem to think that attacking and war can be justified, if they have been attacked first. Goverments realise this so have been sponsering these terrorist attacks on their own people then framing this illusive enemy the 'terrorist'. Which they can use to label any country they want to invade or any ethnicity they want to discriminate against. This makes me sick that this has happened before over and over and we are still letting it happen. Hopefully people will wake up in time before the illuminati get their facist totalitarium state, that they're trying to herd us into forming.
LegoBreaks	Date: November 4, 2006 @ 6:05 PM The only real terrorists in my eyes are the goverments that are terrorising all their citizens into submiting their liberties in the name of freedom. Wtf 'giving up liberties for freedom' that is so double-speak???? The terrorist is just a vague enemy that goverments are using as a excuse to make people think their country is constantly under threat. Which is then used as an excuse to spend the majority of the budget on the military industry. People seem to think that attacking and war can be justified, if they have been attacked first. Goverments realise this so have been sponsering these terrorist attacks on their own people then framing this illusive enemy the 'terrorist'. Which they can use to label any country they want to invade or any ethnicity they want to discriminate against. This makes me sick that this has happened before over and over and we are still letting it happen. Hopefully people will wake up in time before the illuminati get their facist totalitarium state, that they're trying to herd us into forming.
freddemillio	Date: November 5, 2006 @ 6:30 AM IMHO: The best way to fight terrorism is to aleviate misery. Unfortunately very few people / governments have the patience to try this route and they quickly resort to more violent methods which give the illusion of a possible solution but have the inevitable effect of spawning more terrorists. On one day in 2001, one sad event killed several thousand people - that is a shame and is deplorable. As a consequence there have been violent reprisals and just as violent responses. Torture all you want - you will just create the next generation of terrorists. Everyday, tens of thousands of people die from starvation and other avoidable causes. No one gives a shit because these people don't have money and thus can't buy anything so they become marginalized, invisible.
sinai	Date: November 5, 2006 @ 3:41 PM waterboard all you want...just dont complain if you end up on a webcam at jihad.com people die in war, people get tortured in war, happens every day, and not a damn one of em are particularly special.
Helseth	Date: November 18, 2006 @ 12:19 PM This was just another display of America's blatant hypocracy. I highly doubt that the best way to fight terrorism is with terrorism. Kinda like the US' ol' buddy Israel. If Hezbollah are such terrorist, are you trying to prove a point to themby terrorizing Lebanon? Idiots, all of them.
Birdy3000	Date: November 18, 2006 @ 1:49 PM You people who think that torture is acceptable are out of your freakin minds! Yeah it's ok when it's happening a thousand miles away to someone else but what if it happened to your dad, your brother, sister or mum? Would it be acceoptable then because, hey, it's war right? And those of you who ignore or welcome a military industrial state with id cards, surveillance, suspicion and the like in the name of security needs to read some books. Seriously, broaden your horizons a bit. 'Fight fire with fire and the whole world gets burnt' Ghandi