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A new low for objective and constructive comments

LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:02 PM Israfel mentioned a while back that some of this community likes sycophants who suck up to their music and review it with a hundred 'wow' or 'groovin' emoticons and if they don't get that then they gut sulky and take their ball home. It has come to my attention that a couple of people here have blocked me and deleted comments after giving constructive feedback on their work. I have never been rude or obnoxious with anyone and always given the strengths of a song (if I really dislike a song, I just don't comment at all). I have made a couple of suggestions, of how, in my opinion, a song could be improved in arrangement or mixing. I think I did this respectfully. It just goes to show you that some people really do believe their own hype and only welcome suckup comments. What's more, the people who blocked me haven't even had the courage to come forward and talk to me about it. I would have more respect for them if they told me why they deleted the comments and why they were considering blocking. Then I would respect their wishes and not post further comments or modify the content if necessary. IMHO, deleting comments is weak and precious and blocking should be reserved for stalkers, people who abuse, harrass, use bad language or who shout or note indecent or offensive material. I welcome all constructive comments on my material. I certainly don't know everything about arranging, composing or mixing and like to hear other's opinions for my own growth. I may learn something, or I may disagree but either way, I'm not going to block you or delete your comment just because it doesn't totally kiss my a$$. Anyone who really knows me knows that I am not ever trying to insult or offend anyone.
Woof	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:07 PM Here's how it's done. Copy and paste at will, and you'll be fine: OMG I can't believe how good this is! Captured my attention from start to finish, and I think that this is your best track yet! Excellent production, too. Definitely playlisted! Sheer genius!
DeadraveN	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:10 PM Wow. they blocked you and deleted the comments? you're right though, I think for too many people, it's too easy to believe the hype when all these people come in and tell you nothing but how great you are... when a lot of the time they're doing it in hopes that you'll return the favour. just sad... I'm not gonna lie, I enjoy being complimented as much as the next person, but it has to be taken with a grain of salt, and at the same time, one of the strengths of dmusi is that we have in our community a number of very talented musicians/composers/producers/etc.. who are all very capable of pointing out the things we could have done better, or differently in our music... and those kind of comments should be just as welcome, if not more so, than the emote-full praises, imho.
Israfel	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:16 PM leeds, I couldn't agree with you more. The best part about having an open comment area is that people SHOULD be encouraged to say what they feel about a song and as long as its done in a non-offensive constructive way ALL comments should be welcomed. You're not the first I've heard who's had this problem here. Good for you for posting this up!
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:20 PM Thanks. @ woof !!
FraDonaghy	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:25 PM A while ago I actually posted a disclaimer on my page asking people not to comment because I was so fed up with this trend. I do enjoy compliments too, but it reaches a point where you have to step back and ask yourself why people aren't pointing out things you can blatantly hear that are wrong with the song. When I first started here I got a lot of constructive criticism on my tracks and it helped me become a lot better at the whole recording process. Criticism can be, and should be seen as a good thing, and is certainly not something you should be blocked or censored for. If anything, it shows that you care enough to try and help the artist get a little better at what they are doing. You do feel though that sometimes you are walking on eggshells here with some people and I guess we are all guilty of the occasional shallow comment.
Israfel	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:32 PM I know I am, Fra. I admit it but the thing is there is usually something in each song that I listen to that I can honestly say I like about it - the emotion, the intent, even the effort. I'm not technically inclined so never comment on the technical aspects of a song other than maybe the mix or a particular sound that touches me. There are always ways to postively comment on a song even if you are suggesting the artist try some other tactic. And I agree - the critiques help us all get better at what we do. I just don't understand why someone wouldn't want that??? Weird!
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:35 PM Good points Fra. I have had a couple of comments on my work that at first hit a raw nerve and pi$$ed me off for a few minutes, but in retrospect, it was a good thing. And nobody just wrote 'this sucks' which is obviously a whole lot different from a constructive crit such as 'Maybe add a bridge after the 2nd chorus' or 'The guitar sound is too loud on the intro' etc. This is information that is potentially useful, or at least gets one thinking, even if ultimately we change nothing because we don't agree. I would hate for anyone to comment on my music and praise it just by default because we have a 'friendly' relationship through a forum or shoutbox etc.
bmccosar	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:42 PM OK, I started my own personal crusade against this ----- Hey, waitaminit, I'm about to accidentally duplicate some dialogue from Madagascar here, King Julian's, actually ----- I thought of that, I invented it myself. Anyway, I got annoyed with the "greatest song ever since the last greatest song ever" comments, and started leaving as much of what the song meant to me as possible. Like you, Martin, I left nothing if it didn't ring any chimes. Hall and Oates had it right... Some things are better left unsaid. ( and ... some hearts are better left unbroken . . . ahahahh ) So for those of you who got comments, and noticed they were kind of obscure, I was talking to you the way I talk to people in real life, not posing. I say things as they occur to me. You're never sure whether you're talking to the absent minded professor or William S. Burroughs. Even today, the song I remember best from recent months was "Annihilation Battleground" -- it's even made it into my list of catch phrases at school, as in: (while talking about the upcoming space science unit) : "Whether there are aliens or not, we just don't know. I suppose we will know the day the gigantic mothership starts scooping people up with a tractor beam a mile wide...." (you get the 6th grade humor seal of approval, evansorchid )
Mojosnake	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:42 PM you know i'm on both sides of the fence with this issue ... my reviews generly involve alot of and but this is comming from an aspect of a listener... i generly push past things i think need improving in favor for what the song is trying to convey and what the song is making me feel .... music is about emotion for me and the bottom line is i've heard some pretty bad stuff here and there and i've still and becuse of how the track moved me... now on the otherside of the coin i agree here with all thats been said about constructive criticism and i value members like leeds who offer it up.. i might not change the track thats it's been offered on ..but i carry this as valued information for the next creation... anyways i digress from my babble :lmo: (i think i just wanted to type something... )
Israfel	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:44 PM The "greatest song ever since the last greatest song ever" comments. I love that line... and that's an honest comment too!
celtaidd	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:44 PM Must admit, I'm stuck in between. Being a bit insecure musically, I love nice comments, but on the other hand, constructive comments help me to grow as a musician It is, it has to be said, difficult to post critiques of some one else's music because I don't want to appear critical (because obviously my music isn't perfect for obvious reasons, I'm an amateur)
Woof	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:50 PM The thing to remember is, that anything that you do type reflects on you and your own depth of perception. If you're listening to something interesting, type what you feel. And if the recipient doesn't happen to like it, well...
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 8:56 PM I agree that a song that is not recorded optimally but moves me is still a great song. And I would praise it on that factor, even if I should offer up advice on sound quality or arrangement. Any advice offered on improving sound quality is totally subjective too and in some cases, the mix quality obtained really was as good as (or as close to as good as) that artist could have gotten from whatever equipment they were using at the time. Everybody loves nice comments. I think the majority of the comments I leave are 'nice'. I occasionally point out something I feel could be improved on with a belief that the artist might appreciate that information. Another perspective. My perspective is no more correct than the given artist, it's just a suggestion based on a personal opinion. I think if more people think this way, then the whole walking on eggshells thing could be lessened.
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 9:00 PM and trust me, I've had several people here point out deficiencies in my arrangement and mixing, either casual observers, DM buddies or collab partners and I applaud their honesty. Sometimes I wanted to kick their ass at first , but realised that I should step back, take a second look. Think. Maybe try out the suggestion mentally or physically and if it doesn't sound better or work for me, then just keep the original idea or mix. And respect the fact that it wasn't easy for someone else to make a constructive suggestion. It takes no effort or thought to just be a fanboy.
Woof	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 9:14 PM Well I do disagree with one thing there, leeds... There are artists of whom I'm a true fan... and being a fanboy does take a great deal of time and effort, because you're showing your appreciation for something that has touched you deeply. We're not talking about fandom here. We're talking about artists who value their own promotion above communication with their peers, or sincerity. And that's just pettiness. There are major artists who have fansites with guestbooks and forums and things like that, and the occasional self appointed critic leaves comments there, too. The artists just leave it. Because when all is said and done, they're okay with what they've accomplished, and stand by their work regardless of opinions. But to erase the opinions that are critical? Well... that's a little bit like sweeping the dirt under the carpet, isn't it?
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 9:23 PM Fair point. I am a true fan of many artists here too but I am not beyond making a constructive suggestion, even if that is done in private rather than the open comment area. Their are some users here who exactly fit the profile of self promotion. I suppose that is part of what signing up here is, but for some people it's the only reason to be here. How can some objective comments that include positives warrant deletion. I hate marketing that is just a group of carefully selected (and somewhat phoney) testimonials to how great this person or product is. Everyone ought to know by now the old adage - You can't please everybody all of the time....
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 9:29 PM I expected more negative criticism on my tunes of late, since my hearing is going downhill and my mixing sucks ass. I try to give constructive points where I can, although I do enjoy such a wide range of music that very little actually makes me want to puke... Unless it's a really awful Nirvana or Radiohead cover, which I've heard far too many of here. The ones that get up my nose are the ones you just catch streaming your music, then commenting way before the song is finished. You know damn well they haven't listened to it all but have an opinion of the whole song... And half of them just put "great tune" or similar. I like the comments but what is the point if you don't listen to the whole song! This isn't an A&R exec's office...
Woof	Date: November 12, 2007 @ 9:41 PM I do think that we're getting to the core issue here now... thanks, guys! The thing is, self promotion is subject to conflict of interest. That's why A&R firms have a huge business. You can hire people to promote you, and if they do their job properly, you're put in your best possible light. Doing it yourself, though, is kind of like trying to be your own dentist. It's painful, and not always accurate. Plus it comes off as vain and egotistical. Furthermore, however professionally it's done, the public can smell bulls**t a mile away, and if a pro is handling lousy product, it makes both the artist and the promoter look like snake oil salesmen. Then all trust is lost. Having been in marketing a good deal of my life, I can say outright that it can be the greatest business on the planet, or the shittiest... depending on what you've got to sell.
evansorchid	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 12:12 AM Martin don't worry about it. I imagine that most of us who hang out here on a regular basis have a few anidotes about another DM member or two who has some how managed to upset us. I've only blocked one person because of a negative comment. I won't say who it was because I really don't care to reveal his pseudonym, but, I had left what I thought was a constructive comment on one of his tracks. I mentioned something about how one of the instruments had an odd reverb or something that made it sound like it had reverberated from out of a tunnel. You'd have thought I'd insulted his religion. I received a note about what a jerk he thought I was. Lemme look back at my notes and see if I can find the text.....aah....here it is. ______________________ * Say by the way I hope you will sign up if you are from the USA for the draft. Its coming folks like you voted for bush and got us into iraq now your going to finish it. The Military will do you good. You will learn disipline their you will learn to keep you fucking mouth shut! I JUST GOT FINISHED WITH ACIDPLANET DEALING WITH FUCKS LIKE YOU THEIR, Little spoiled kids with nothing to do but play and think you are the best!!! you ego will be flushed down the drain and you will obey!! for the good of mankind! or mankind might take you out cause=effect. I am sorry for getting sooo. mad but look hundreds of casulties and distruction and you think of leaving a bad review? how the fuck could you even think bad thoughts about music in a time like this??????????????? have you ever seen people die or an accident? you must live a very sheltered life......Who the fuck do you think you are! this is not your song and music is not owned by you! WE ARE FREE i don't know if you live in the USA but man we are FREE to do write and think our own way. DONT FUCK WITH THE EAGLE! he might just rip your eyes out!! I didn't fight for your Country to have Fucks like you make insults and human rights violations it is a mental human right! to say what you said!! you threatned our music!!! but to others it can mean somthing else. NOT WHAT YOU THINK! ADOLF HITLER THOUGHT ALONG YOUR LINES!!! Rephrase your review please or I will send 1000 artists here a letter to boycott you!! Remember you are YOU and not WE. you have 24 hours for an correction or I will send 1000 letters out to selected artists here you WILL be boycotted by anyone that values MUSIC....**** _________________ When I received this note, it seriously scared me. Kinda like that feeling you got when you were a kid and getting confronted by the school yard bully. I was physically ill after I read his note. I avoided DM for a month after this. I honestly couldn't believe that I'd made someone else that upset because I thought he'd used too much reverb on his track. So, needless to say, I became a bit more careful about randomly picking a new artist and offering 'constructive criticism'. I just thought I'd share that with you Martin. You've been very generous with your comments regarding my material and your criticisms are always very constructive. So, don't dwell too much on the reactions to the comments that others make regarding your comments. If someone blocks you, it's their loss, not yours. Oh, and thanks Bruce for the 6th grade seal of approval....
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 12:17 AM Holy cow, Orchid... An obnoxious replier from Acidplanet? Why does that sound familiar? I knew someone here who sang praises for that site whilst slagging us off...
K3VIN	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 12:45 AM i dont even get those comments
Woof	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 1:08 AM Wow! How did Bukowski put that? "Misdirected animosity" Yeah, that's it...
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 8:06 AM That was one hell of a comment Spike based on the fact that you advised a change of reverb. You are correct about random people, we go back to Fra's 'walking on eggshells' comment. The sad thing for me, is that the people involved in blocking me are artists who are really liked and respected here, one of them a Dmusic award winner and I have left comments with nothing but praise on most of my other comments and being positive in general with that person on the odd time I shouted them. And not even a shout to say why they felt a need to delete a comment. If I genuinely knew that they were hypersensitive then I would only mention the positives or say nothing. These people are accomplished and popular musicians and one slight piece of objectivity from me is not going to harm their reputation. Like I said before, bad enough deleting a comment, but BLOCKING? C'mon ! (to my blockers) I have rarely shouted or noted you, have only shouted or noted you positive stuff that was only relevant to your music, no personal stuff, no trolling, abuse, harrasment, indecency. Am I really such a demon that should be blocked at all costs?
HenriRoger	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 8:17 AM On 12th Nov 2009, celtaidd said: Must admit, I'm stuck in between. Being a bit insecure musically, I love nice comments, but on the other hand, constructive comments help me to grow as a musician It is, it has to be said, difficult to post critiques of some one else's music because I don't want to appear critical (because obviously my music isn't perfect for obvious reasons, I'm an amateur) Most artists here are amateurs If only pros wrotte comments we'd be back to old times when journalists wrotte critics about records and had readers ... Comments here should come from users , amateurs , pros, anyone loving music I don't believe in improvement in music by reading comments on a indie website . Collabs are good for this . Lessons help to lose less time .
NickSawyer	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 8:32 AM And now for something completely different: I agree Leeds, and although I never suggest things (I'm surely not expert enough myself), I do try to give honest feedback. A problem I have though is putting lots of wows and thumbsup and hoping people take the comment seriously
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 9:25 AM I would prefer someone to pick out possible areas of improvement, especially in mixing, although I couldn't do much in that area myself (not unless surgeons start doing ear canal transplants!)... Still, I have to say there is one comment I've had a few times over the years, something along similar lines of "Not bad but not to my taste", which always amuses and confuses me. I could never work out if that person meant "I'm not into electronic but I just had to listen" like the old parental argument when getting stubborn kids to eat vegetables ("How do you know you don't like it until you've tried it?") or they mean "I wasn't into your music, I'm still not... And I didn't really listen to it because I can't think of anything to criticise even though I didn't like it"... If you don't like a song because of its genre, I gotta wonder why you played it to start with. If you genuinely don't like a song, give a reason why but don't be an asshole about it. If you don't like a song because you are one of the minority that can barely stand genres outside of your own (and I can think of a few that fall into this section) and you leave a pointless or useless comment... I feel like it's nothing more than some song comment spam. Oh, now I'm done with not making any sense to the person who listened to my hour long special and left a glowing review after EIGHT minutes... Prat!
SimonWaldram	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 11:07 AM On 13th Nov 2009, leedsquietman said: The sad thing for me, is that the people involved in blocking me are artists who are really liked and respected here, one of them a Dmusic award winner and I have left comments with nothing but praise on most of my other comments and being positive in general with that person on the odd time I shouted them. And not even a shout to say why they felt a need to delete a comment. If I genuinely knew that they were hypersensitive then I would only mention the positives or say nothing. These people are accomplished and popular musicians and one slight piece of objectivity from me is not going to harm their reputation. I too have recently had a constructive commented deleted by a DM award winner with whom I got on very well with and had given almost nothing but praise before. When I asked this person why I got quite a nasty note in return which basically said that I am shallow and negative (even though I said I liked the song and highlighted the parts I enjoyed the most) and I'm not good enough to comment on it as my music - which this person had regularly told me was great - is in fact crap. In two and half years on this site few things have left me feeling so disillusioned. How anybody’s ego can be so fragile as to react to a song comment like that is, sadly, beyond me.
Distilled1	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 11:52 AM well damn I have never even blocked the A$$ Hat coment people if they want to be an A$$ HAT then I leave it up for all to see.. wow an award winner is doing this ? thats sad. I love any comment I get Specially my solo live stuff as I am singing and want to know where to improve and I am doing things I am not used to. sorry bad typing hands
SimonWaldram	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 12:32 PM I should probably add that the person I referred to above did see the error of their ways and offered a full apology. I accepted, but I'm still willing to mention it here if it benefits what I think is quite an important discussion.
NoRentJoseph	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 2:35 PM I know that sometimes my comments have been a little unimaginative, and perhaps a little too sucky sometimes. And hope I'm not one of the guilty party (well overly). With that said, Here is a personal reflection of how I feel. I love the great comments I get. And hope they a meant with sincerity. I think the emoticons do brighten up the page. but should be used a little bit like an exclamation mark! As Terry Pratchett said "Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind." Reading this post has made me think though.
bmccosar	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 2:43 PM On 13th Nov 2009, HenriRoger said: I don't believe in improvement in music by reading comments on a indie website . Collabs are good for this . Lessons help to lose less time . And practice, of course
ShadowMom	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 2:47 PM !!!!! Okay, I can't comment on your work from a technical viewpoint, but to just ignore it, or not comment at all seems cold. If I enjoy it, I try to tell you so... if not, I do not comment at all. But I try to find something positive in everyone's work, because it may encourage more hard work... which may lead to better music... which may lead to better comments. My point is this: there are a lot of listeners here-- and if we tell you we like your music, we are not being insincere, but soliciting comments may have that effect. And if someone blocks you, that's sad but inevitable. You all asked for more control of your shoutboxes and comments and you got it. Personally, I think communication is essential-- both for improving your work, and for keeping the community lively without being hostile. You've brought up some good points in this thread, and this IS communication. Some of it is painful, but it shows just how our actions can affect others. Kudos to you all.
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 7:50 PM Ironically one of the people blocking me has commented about communication problems here in the past and within the hierarchy at DM and offered suggestions to that end. Then blocks me without even trying to communicate with me (i.e. LQM, I would prefer not to receive constructive comments), which I would have dutifully respected for the future, just hides behind the anonymity of blocking. It is a cowardly action. I could understand if I'd been offensive, harrassing or indecent but I had sent about 2 shouts in 2 years to this person congratulating them on great music etc. And had posted several reviews, of which 1 of them offered a constructive suggestion. I hope they got a real rush out of banning the demon Leeds from their artist page
Woof	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 8:09 PM Ya know, I've been thinking about all of this since last night, and I guess I'd just like to say that if people feel like they're walking on eggshells, it just ain't worth it... I mean, why bother, then? This is supposed to be about interaction, participation, art, music, and fun... and somehow it's become... I dunno... something else... Something ugly. Bids for attention, resentment, hurt feelings... all this going on behind the happy, smiling promo portraits that everybody has on their artist page. That ain't right...
SimonWaldram	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 8:41 PM I've not commented as much this year because I too feel like I'm walking on egg shells half the time, but I'm going to get back into it. The vast majority of the time people are fine with my comments, but occasionally the reactions are pretty disheartening. I really think we're paying the price for all these years of back-slapping comments. No I know it's not how everyone behaves, but it has been a prevailing theme on the site for far too long. People get caught up in other people telling them how great they are and they know that the way for this to continue is to do the same to others. Then when they get a more honest critical comment (constructive or otherwise) from someone who is a bit more honest their ego’s can't take it. It’s sad, but if such people wanted to block me then that fine, as I don’t want to deal with people that sad and immature anyway. Also, there's no way I believe half the hype people have posted on my own artist page. I have a few fans and I really appreciate that, but I know I'm not great and I don't want to be told I am by someone who's just listened to a minute-and-a-half of one of my songs. Save that praise for when you really mean it.
Woof	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 9:12 PM Gosh, I feel like an idiot... All it would take, to turn things around, is for DM to change the context! Bear with me here... If, instead of the word "Comment", DM would use "User Review", well... that would put everything into a whole new perspective, wouldn't it? Because then, the people posting reviews would be putting their credibility on the line with everything that they write. Right now, "Comment" can be a few complimentary words tossed around like you would in a shoutbox. But to actually review someone's work takes thought, attention to detail, and reasonably good writing skills. Not everyone can do that. And some will try, but do it badly. What this would create, is a core membership of skilled reviewers, who could be held in high regard for their ability to express their thoughts literally, as well as musically. And of course, people would still comment... they would just comment where comments really have always belonged... in the shoutboxes. Does this make any sense to anyone?
kingo	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 10:37 PM Woof, what you're suggesting makes sense except that you're in a way throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I've avoided getting involved in this thread because it's a subject that comes up pretty much every... I don't know, six months to a year... without fail. And everything's been said. But right now I'm going to ignore that. Here's the point I haven't really seen made, except ShadowMom made it or hinted at it: artist pages are for artists. Long ago it was suggested that artists simply indicate on their artist page what kind of song comments they prefer. Some people don't want "user review"s. Or "Critical Assessment"s. Some people really do want "comment"s. "This song makes me feel all mushy inside, smiley smiley, cloud9, happyface, floaty bubbles, popping things, weird symbol, american flag, flower, flower, hug, flower, flower, bigger smile." That's a comment. Even if it looks ridiculous, there might be some scrap of truth in that "makes me feel all mushy inside" bit. "You need a remix. The guitar's clipping in the right channel and the bass is muddy and the kick drum sounds like the mic was misaligned and the vocals have too much sibilance." That's a critical assessment, a hopefully helpful tip. Some people don't have any need whatever for critical assessments and helpful tips. They don't come here to get them. They come here to put their songs up and direct their fans to them and market themselves so they can become rich and famous and sell stuff and look cool with fancy makeup and designer clothes and tour the world and fuck supermodels and be hated by mothers everywhere. Some people don't have time to work on their technical chops and don't have the slightest idea how to fix clipping in a guitar track and don't really give a shit. If an artist isn't going to go to the trouble of coming out and saying, "I don't want people saying anything 'critical' of my music because I use this site as a promotional tool and don't want the sheep who I'm trying to trick into buying my ugly t-shirts to read something here and suddenly realize we suck," then that's their concern. If people go offering critical assessments where they are not asked for, it shouldn't come as a surprise when they get their shit deleted and themselves blocked. Why does it bother you? Why do you give a shit what this kind of musician does on here? Now, an explicit way to achieve some kind of balance would be to have two kinds of thing per song: one for "comments" and another for "critical assessments" or "user reviews." One step further would be to have a comment box on the artist page, and then a button for "Review this Song," which would allow you to write a review which would be posted on a special tab on your user page called "Reviews". Each review would link to the reviewed track, but would be within the user's control. In other words, the musician couldn't delete it. Then there'd be an option for artists to display something called "Links to Reviews" on their songs. Artists not interested in criticism could simply say "no thanks" to the option to display that. There's a lot of work there. Of course the real reason I keep coming back to this particular thread is because I'm waiting for someone to go ahead and put some names with some of this stuff. It'd save a lot of would-be helpful critics a lot of time, listening and thinking and formulating and writing time, to know which particular artists aren't interested in that. And I'd just like to have my suspicions put to rest before I start critically reviewing all the likely suspects to try to get blocked so I can post a thread here saying, "The ____ _____s deleted my review!!" *
bmccosar	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 10:38 PM Makes sense. Of course we return to exactly the same place as before: Even if we all agreed this is the best thing . . . um, who do we tell? Ah, I'm through kvetching about this particular point. I'm going to just set the darn thing to music. ahem wait a minute, I got to tune up . . . -pling- -pling- -ploink- . . . . [12-string intro, familiar chords, Bm, F#m, etc.] On an internet highway Cool tunes in my player Warm sound of collaborations Rising up through the air Up ahead on the front page I saw a shimmering light The gifs grew hazy and the jpgs dim Guess the servers weren't right There she stood at the help desk Next to MusicPill And I was shoutboxing to myself This could be heaven, but most likely hell Then I wrote a help desk ticket And she throwed it away There were messages in the music forum And I could swear I heard them say Welcome to DMusic Purgatory Such a lovely place Such a lonely page Plenty of space at DMusic Purgatory Any song you hear You can find it here The server's definitely twisted It's had some SQL fits We got some pretty smiley icons And lists of friends How they chat in the shoutbox CTRL-R to refresh Some wait for an upgrade Where it might auto-fetch So I called up ShadowMom "Please hear me whine" She said, I've got a crapload of folks on my watchlist, you'll have to get in line. And still those postings are scrolling from far away, Wake up in the middle of the night, reading what they say: Welcome to the DMusic Purgatory. Such a lovely place, See your lonely page. They're streaming your tunes in DMusic Purgatory: Maybe twice is nice. Bring your own spotlight! Members on the playlists Streaming all their tunes twice She said, We are all just downloaders here, on our own device. And in LeFlaw's forum, they gather with their speech. They submit help desk tickets, But they just can't catch the beast! [guitar solo] naaa nee na now nee na now nee na now nee na now, nee na now nee na now nee na now neeeeee! (etc.) Last thing I remember I was reading in the forum Trying to find a way to correct a coding error I made before 'Relax' said leedsquietman, 'the site is programmed to receive...' [wait for it] [wait for it] [wait for it] [all together now] YOU CAN CHECK OUT ANY TIME YOU LIKE... BUT YOU CAN NEVER LEAVE!!! nee na now nee na now nee na now nee na now, neener na neener deedle deeee.... (etc).
evansorchid	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 10:50 PM On 13th Nov 2009, bmccosar said: So I called up ShadowMom "Please hear me whine" She said, I've got a crapload of folks on my watchlist, you'll have to get in line.
kyodylee	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 10:56 PM Woof said: "Ya know, I've been thinking about all of this since last night, and I guess I'd just like to say that if people feel like they're walking on eggshells, it just ain't worth it..." Woof, you hit the nail on the head. At least for me anyway. I used to comment a lot. And I'm not an artist expecting a comment in return. Just an avid music fan and listener. I commented sincerely and genuinely if I enjoyed a track and didn't comment at all if I didn't enjoy it. But I truly liked something about most of the stuff I listened to. Now I don't comment at all. If I like a track, I will listen to the whole thing. If I really like it, I will download it, burn it to CD and listen while I drive and/or give CDs to friends. If I can't download it, I won't listen to it. And if I don't like it, I'll cut if off before it finishes. And I do this all now without even bothering to log on anymore.
Woof	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 11:08 PM Ah... this is a long and arduous path, isn't it? Nice to see you again, kyody... it has been a while, hasn't it? I do also really NEED to thank you, Kingo, for participating yet again. It does mean an awful lot. And certainly the points that you've made are well taken. What I really do consider the most valuable moment to date in this thread, is your comment that crystallizes the problem so well: "I don't want people saying anything 'critical' of my music because I use this site as a promotional tool and don't want the sheep who I'm trying to trick into buying my ugly t-shirts to read something here and suddenly realize we suck" That fear of being "found out" is probably responsible for 99% of the ill will. Bless you for putting it so well.
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 11:10 PM It might be helpful to have a notification of what comments an artist does or doesn't want. My deleted comment was a positive one applauding the arrangement and performance, I make one suggestion about the mix, respectfully. Then finish off with a positive. I am not going to reveal the identity of the person blocking me, although Lord only knows why I should protect their privacy, except that I do believe artists should have the right to block - although for appropriate reasons, such as offensive posts, abuse, personal attacks, spamming etc. And due to the popularity of the said person and the fact that I don't want to get into a flaming war, I will let it be. This could all have been prevented with a little common sense, if the recipient of my comment didn't like it, all they had to do was send a polite shout or dnote to me to let me know that they are not seeking objective comments and that would have been fine. I wouldn't persist with it and if I did, the blocking would be merited. Anyway, I've said my piece and wasted time and energy on this at a time when my wife is seriously ill and I am having some serious health issues of my own, plus no time working a full time job and doing extra work on the side to pay the mortgage etc. So roger and out for me...
evansorchid	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 11:27 PM Oh come on now, Martin. (and please don't take this personally.......) Who in their right mind is going to 'note' or 'shout' you a message stating that they aren't seeking objective comments? *Seeking subjective, shallow, flattering, and bootlicking comments only* If only it were that simple? I'm happy if someone simply leaves me a..."" emote. At least I know someone's listening.
Israfel	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 11:32 PM It is simpler than that, Spike. How about when someone registers there's a box to check that indicates they agree to check all egos at the door.
Woof	Date: November 13, 2007 @ 11:54 PM That was the whole point in my agreeing with Kingo's comment though, Israfel. It's lack of ego that's the problem, not overabundance of it. Someone who has confidence and conviction for what they're doing can handle even an outright "You suck " comment. Because they know what they're about, and they don't need to concern themselves that the audience that they are reaching will be dissuaded by someone's critical opinion. People with genuine talent can take it. It's the fakes... the ones who know inside already that they aren't that great, that don't want someone exposing them. I suppose that means that you can pretty much gauge who's doing something genuine, and who isn't... by how they accept criticism.
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 12:04 AM yeah spike, you're probably right but I'd have more respect for someone who has a notice saying 'only kiss a$$ comments welcome !'
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 1:53 AM On 14th Nov 2009, Kingo said: Some people don't have any need whatever for critical assessments and helpful tips. They don't come here to get them. They come here to put their songs up and direct their fans to them and market themselves so they can become rich and famous and sell stuff and look cool with fancy makeup and designer clothes and tour the world and fuck supermodels and be hated by mothers everywhere. and the new version of Hotel California by bmccosar... when do you start recording it? look to the bigger world of music. when people get famous, anyone can say anything really... unless of course it's slander, or your name is Prince. most artists take the bad with the good and find ways to improve... but some people can never be fully satisfied. fuck them, fuck their negative comments and keep on making music the way you want to. did they make the rules for creating music that you are following? NO.
bmccosar	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 7:25 AM Well, I'd have to fix some of the notes, they're wrong -- I put a few nee na nows where there should have been neener na neener na deedle dees.
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 7:45 AM
Rodrica	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 8:14 AM I've taken on board the various opinions above... I would just like to say that I try and respect all artists' requirements with regard to comments. I never offer advice or criticism unless they specifically ask me. If they do, then I take time the listen to their track several times over, I ask them in depth about how they mixed the track and take on board what THEY wanted to achieve, rather than what I wanted to hear. I do this in private. Why? Because if I admire what an artist's work, I believe it is my place to help them get as much public support as I possibly can. When I say I admire an artist's work I am NOT being sycophantic. Unlike many ppl, I will put my money where my mouth is and spend much time/effort in trying to help them achieve their goals in any way I can. If I can help to market an artist positively then I will. I spend more time promoting other people on this site than myself. That has always been the case. It's disappointing that some people view this as being sycophantic. Perhaps that's the problem with this site and why it's losing so many talented artists. Good intentions are needlessly ridiculed. I prefer to keep everything else private because I have nothing to prove and no axe to grind. I'd rather help someone privately than appear to be some kind of oracle publicly. I believe I am more likely to TRULY help an artist by keeping negative stuff between ourselves where we can discuss things openly and in depth. For myself, I have certain mentors on site who I frequently use for advice. I also run all my material past a professional engineer, two session musicians and a publisher. It's always good to have work analyzed by people who understand what your goals are. All major artists have FULL control over the content of their web pages. I believe independent and amateurs alike should be afforded the same courtesy. That way, the artist can decide exactly how they want to promote themselves. And like it or not, the marketing machine is all part of being a successful musician. If you handle it incorrectly it equates to playing a load of bum notes. And I say that as an ex-media director. If you want to market yourself as a bad musician, fine. But it should be your choice if you want to do that, not someone else's. If ppl cannot look at this subject professionally, then please try and look at it personally. Someone mentioned that they are currently going through a personal crisis. This illustrates the point perfectly. I would NEVER want to say anything on anyone's page that is likely to cause them (or their friends/family) distress or pain at a bad point in their lives. The world is bad enough without making anyone feel they, or their friends, are being crucified publicly. In summary - I think we should all try and respect each other's wishes. And on that basis, if anyone doesn't want my continuing support and positive comments, or alternatively if they want some private criticism on their music - please note me an let me know.
ShadowMom	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 8:51 AM Just a thought, and I haven't forgotten you -- how would you feel about having a suggestion box, as well as leaving the comment section the way it is? Something that the artist could view privately, like a Dnote. If it were placed on the artist page instead of the user page, it could be used for recommending specific items, but only viewable by the artist-- who then has a choice of responding or not. I also think this should not be this much of an issue. We all learn from constructive criticism, and even a listener like me can improve my musical knowledge by seeing the suggestions other artists make. But a suggestion box, which perhaps could be turned on and off, would remove what may be perceived as a negative. Thoughts? And yeah, Jack and Tracy will probably shoot me for this, but hey... I can take it!
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 9:31 AM It's not being syncophantic to leave a positive comment or use dozens of emoticons if it's genuinely felt but it's evident that some people barely listen at all and just take the easy option which is to just praise and put a few 'wow' emoticons etc. Nobody can release music that pleases everybody ALL of the time, if that were true then there would be no music media or critiques, but half of the mags sold from Rolling Stone to Family Circle offer up their 'experts' to praise or pull down an artist, correct or not. And with respect Rodrica, it's very evident that you take your career very seriously and that is one part of why you are respected and admired but put a demo recording to a jury of 10 producers and engineers and chances are at least 4 or 5 of them will find something they give feedback on, even if the other half love it. Ultimately, the amount of professional producers and engineers buying a given work only accounts for a tiny fraction, so however flawed public perception may be, it is something that needs to be considered too. They are the ones who buy or walk on by a given artist's music. I think people who really are serious about their music, should really value constructive comments highly and respect the fact that it is never easy on a community based site to leave that feedback. Reprisals, blocking, deleting and being called unsavoury names in other's shoutboxes etc. is the risk you run when you might genuinely want to help someone, not bring them down. If prospective people to the site are put off by well intentioned suggestions, then maybe the site is betetr off without them. I just don't understand the prima donna attitudes of some people, every day is an education. I can learn new things everyday, or close my mind and believe I know everything. It's a personal choice and I know which camp I'm in and thank those who have made objective and constructive comments on m music, whether I agree or not it gets me thinking and sometimes there is a better way... Having said all of this, I definately would not want to post objectively where it isn't wanted. I only ever post on songs I feel somewhat positive about anyway, but would not bother wasting my time thinking or typing anything beyond a simple sentence or two as to the positive qualities. Why bother thinking and wasting time beyond that when a dozen emoticons can be added so quickly
miraclemaker	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 9:39 AM You all have made some valid points and conclusions and I applaud you all :bow: (only kidding, see its kinda addictive) I have been in allot of bands and had had some experience with recording and sound - but I feel that although being a musician for several years I can always learn from others. For at no time do I take on the "Im an expert" type of attitude. I think that to be sincere about another persons music is important and giving construtive criticism is a plus and should be acceptable. But, In no way, 'as Rodrica pointed out', should the person be put down or left feeling bad about comments someone made. I am new here and In a short time Ive seen allot of talented musicians on all levels. Yes I think respecting ones feelings and music is the key for growth musically and mentally - and I commend those who do just that.
Rodrica	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 10:38 AM I entirely agree with you leeds about the the experts - they too will have differing views. However, they too are the only people who will put cash on the table and will provide the support necessary for you to genuinely further your music. No disrespects to music websites - I love the ones I'm on, but we are all giving away our music for free and none of our critics are paying our wages. Publishers are the hardest and most critical you can meet and so are people who commission songs from you which they are paying for! I'm used to doing things "their way" when I work on those projects because that's what I am paid for (or hoping to be paid for). My attitude to their criticisms is that it goes with the territory. But you have to draw the line somewhere... I've been in situations on the web where I've altered a song to satisfy the criticisms...only to have to alter it 5 more times and then end up with the original mix because other people disagreed! A never ending circle! I therefore feel advice and criticism has to be narrowed to the job in hand. And if there are ppl on the site who intend their material for purposes other than offering it to a free website for analysis, then no doubt their reaction to what's said may be one of disinterest at best and irritation at worst. And far worse than unwanted criticism is spamming and nutters! You can't prevent ppl from misusing your comments boxes. But you can control it by allowing ALL members to delete what they don't want. This is the case at many websites, so it would be great if DM could introduce the same. It would also save the admins some valuable time too. Leeds, please don't think that everyone who doesn't want criticisms are all "prima donnas". Quite the contrary. Once I've got to know those people I've found that they are very keen to improve their music, but just don't have the confidence to be dissected in public. Either that or they've got other issues in their lives that impact on how they react to such things. That's why I prefer to tread carefully/deal with it on note. Give the people what they want. Then everyone's happy.
zedsalt	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 11:19 AM If the separate comment and suggestion boxes are implemented, I can't leave another comment. Every time I comment, I try to find something that could stand improvement, something that may or not be an "issue" to the artist(s) and for which I can offer some sort of "solution". I don't always find such a thing. So, what's the percentage? How often am I able to make a criticism which I hope is helpful? I have no idea, as thinking about such things would leave me unable to make a worthwhile comment. Breaking the comments up into separate boxes for compliments, suggestions, RIYL-style namedropping (another thing I try to include each and every time, but often no one leaps to mind), barely-related anecdotes, icon abuse, etc. doesn't seem like a great move. You notice how I didn't say that it's solely my opinion and take the time to point out that I don't consider myself an expert on the topic? Yeah, anyone that doesn't get that implication and jumps to some bizarre conclusion...I don't see any reason to dwell on that person's opinion.
GTOriginal	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 1:26 PM
Distilled1	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 2:06 PM ^ Gary do yolu make those
BlackMage	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 3:54 PM I just don't care anymore. I did like... maybe 1-2 years ago. Now I just get in, listen, type comment, listen again maybe, edit comment and then usually post. Sometimes I don't even post. I'm not really expecting anything back. It doesn't even matter to me whether the artist is alive or not. I just listen to the song and possibly comment on it.
Woof	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 5:56 PM You make some interesting points, Rodrica... I wanted to see what kinds of solutions might be available to resolve these problems, and so I looked up some terms in the dictionary: Comment - a remark, observation, or criticism. Review - a critical article or report, as in a periodical, on a book, play, recital, or the like; critique; evaluation. Since both terms include variations on the word "criticism", I looked that up, too. Criticism - the act of passing judgment as to the merits of anything. What it looks like, is that any way you cut it, the act of criticism is not only likely to occur in comments and reviews, but inevitable. It's obvious that some individuals would prefer not to have their work publicly criticised. So here's what I'd suggest: People could have two options for their artist pages here: The first would be to leave things as they are. No problem there... except that the odd critical comment will appear, and they'll have to deal with that. The second option would be for artists to opt out of the comments feature, and in its' place, visitors can submit their opinions in much the same way that we private message each other now. Then a given artist could read through what's been submitted, select what they want their public to read, and post quotations blog-style, under the heading "Read What People Are Saying About (insert band name here)". This is a simple and elegant solution, not hard to program, and would definitely make it clear to befuddled visitors, exactly who welcomes criticism from their public, and who doesn't.
GTOriginal	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 6:49 PM I think Woof's suggestions have been excellent - this "Comment/Crit War" nonsense has been raging on DM since before I ever came here in 2004. There will always be two schools of thought and the only resolution would be to accomodate both in some way... I personally do not want technical reviews of my stuff, because I have no intention of going back and remixing any of it - not because I think it's perfect (LOL), not because I think I'm better than anyone who dares review my almighty songs, but because I am only in this for fun. Too Much Tweaking = WORK. I hope my stuff entertains those who listen, but if I start down the road to perfection I'll get stuck on the next song until I die, because music can always be made "better". Obviously if there's a glaring error or problem that hurts your ears, I wanna hear about it - preferably in a note & here is why: Many times people read comments while waiting to load the tune, which gives them a prejudice before the first note sounds. I also don't want insincere praise for the same reason. This defeats the purpose of entertainment, and listening becomes a witch hunt for (insert problem or glory here) instead. The important thing to remember is we are all posting for different reasons, with different expectations. Thank you for reading my long winded two cents. And yep Distilled1 I made that gif lol.
HenriRoger	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 7:14 PM On 14th Nov 2009, GTOriginal said: Are you sure " Why aren't you famous yet ? " is a positive comment ? -) And " Almost like GT original " ??? hahaha Great gif !!!
djeffectz	Date: November 14, 2007 @ 9:13 PM Oh no, not the same craziness here.. (I'm a regular APer for the most part, we aren't all obnoxious like that one guy.. ) Anyway.. personally I think COMMENT should stay as it is, COMMENTS. If you turn it into review system it will open up a whole other can of worms. Art shouldn't have numbers. I have said the same thing over on AP Pro Zone forums before as well. Dmusic is just fine without USER REVIEWS. Oh, and for the record: I still like this place even though I am not around as often as I used to be.
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 15, 2007 @ 3:21 AM Half the time I don't go back to songs that I put up here (given how many I can write in a short space of time) but I'd still like people to say there are things missing or needs something added, even if I don't go back to it. It's all part of the "criticism" - If you put up a song, then you are inviting the listener to say something about it here. To be honest (and this isn't to be construed as a jab at any one person) if you get technical or negative comments, you should at least be grateful they listened, even if it doesn't pander to your ego. It's something you can carry over to the next song, if you don't ignore or delete it (the latter being the classic ego sign). To date, since I rebuilt my band pages I have deleted just ONE comment in the lot - which wasn't a criticism of my music at all but a snide remark aimed at me as a person.
BOWILLIE	Date: November 15, 2007 @ 10:32 AM i just recently used..why arnt you famous..and i really meant it. the dudes music is proffessional par excellence and has consistantly been so since hes been here i say what i really feel..and if it comes along the lines of sounding like sucking up..what ever..they are my words and opinions..and no one elses. MindSculpture (im sure some will agree..and disagree..thats the way of the world in general.
GTOriginal	Date: November 15, 2007 @ 2:05 PM OK, let's see if I got this straight now: I listen to a song and like it, but I must be careful about saying so out of fear that I may be stroking the artist's ego. If on the other hand, my own ego needs a quick boost, I can go to the very same song and pick it apart, pointing out all the stuff I can do better. The artist should call what I'm doing constructive and be grateful for the attention, because he asked for it by posting the tune in the first place. Now I understand PS - I agree Bow, MindSculpture is awesome. Been listening for years.
Rodrica	Date: November 15, 2007 @ 3:27 PM Woof - I think we already have the solution, all we have to do is make deletions available to all. We already have the facility to say whatever we want about an artist's song - that's fine. But we should just make sure that everyone can delete any comment they don't like. Then everyone's happy. On a side note about blocking. We have a right to protect ourselves. And yes I've used it - usually to stop some nutter/spammer making personal remarks about me or another artist, and more recently I deleted/blocked 2 people who were having an argument on my page because they disagreed with each other's opinion of one of my songs. I kept their original comments - good and bad - but I wasn't going to host an all-out war! As I see it, it's pointless trying to have a sensible discussion with anyone who behaves like that. It makes more sense to distance myself from it all. As for egos...that's rare on this site. Most of us have too much of a sense of humor for that...and all of us are always looking for ways to improve our music, even if it's not clear to the person reviewing us.
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 15, 2007 @ 3:34 PM no, you can come and stroke my ego anyday, GT... as long as you bring a smoke. if all we get is some positive praise (no pointers or suggestions) or simple "asskissing" criticism, we won't really find as many ways to improve... after all, if our music was that well liked, why the fuck are we not making millions with CDs in every shop and online store in the world? forget answers about choosing to, i know nearly every serious artist would love to make a good living off their music and secure their future...
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 15, 2007 @ 3:35 PM choosing NOT to, i mean. heck, i haven't even started drinking yet.
Rodrica	Date: November 15, 2007 @ 5:29 PM Have another drink chill! I would say most well-liked bands don't make millions. The record companies prefer to hire untalented airheads that can be easily manufactured, manipulated, then dropped when they go out of fashion. Talent usually has all to do with it...sadly. We'd all do just great if we had a cousin/partner/friend at EMI too! Or if you're willing to sell your @$$...
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 15, 2007 @ 5:52 PM i meant more on the popularity side of it, i know many great bands never sell that well but then maybe that's because they're great to a much smaller group of people. DM should've started its own label...
Woof	Date: November 15, 2007 @ 6:15 PM With all due respect, Rodrica, I beg to differ. Artists have had the ability to delete comments and block users for some time now... as far as I know, this option is available to everyone. And it's obvious, from the things being said in this thread, and the ones that have come before it that covered the same topic, that everybody is certainly not happy. People are confused. They leave what they believe to be a worthwhile review of someone's song, and then find that they've been deleted and blocked. And they're left to ask themselves whether they offended that artist... whether they've made an enemy... and which other artists are going to resent their being critical as well. It really does need to be spelled out for people. Either in programming, or in writing. And I'm sure that no artist here wants to put a banner on their page saying something like: "Compliments Only, Please. Critical Remarks Will Result In Your Being Blocked From My Site".
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 15, 2007 @ 10:38 PM I've decided that I will now only comment on the small group of people with whom I know I can be honest and to whom I know won't be oversensitive to any suggestions. That excludes the vast majority of the site and that's a pity but so be it. And I've now gotten past people deleting or attacking my comments and those people who feel the need to block me, I never meant to cause any offence (I don't get into drawn out flaming wars in the forums or people's artist pages, a waste of time and energy) and don't have the time or inclination to bother with this stuff in future. So go ahead and block away if it makes you feel better and gives you the satisfaction of being 'in control'. I'd actually respect someone more that had a 'compliments only please', that would be funny and honest - really
SimonWaldram	Date: November 16, 2007 @ 12:43 AM Maybe instead of implimenting the comments page as well as a review page idea, we should have three different comments pages for each song: A suck up / blind praise page (eg "Wow! You rock!") A negative diss page (eg "Um... You suck!") and a constructive criticism page (eg "Hmm Some parts of this song suck and other parts rock. Here's why I think some of it sucks...") Alright, so maybe that's a bad idea... A month or so ago I put up a notice on my artist snapshot page which basically asks people not to be sycophantic if they comment on my songs. It's still up there and I'm sticking to it, as I'm sick of both the relentless sucking up / false platitudes and unjustified egos that plague this place, and I’m starting to hope that some of them might actually go away in time (or maybe even change their attitudes) if the rest of us start to make it clear that we won’t put up with it any longer. People can heckle me at gigs or tell me a recording is crap and it’s fine – not because I don’t care (I do) or because it doesn’t hurt (it does) but because I’m just making the music that I want to make, and if other people don’t like it then that’s perfectly understandable – and if they go so far as to be abusive about it then who gives a damn about them anyway? I know there are certain people on here who seem to react very badly to criticism – no matter how constructive it may have been, and I know you know who you are as well. I actually feel quite sorry for you, as this would seem to be the result or either a huge, over inflated ego, or a complete lack in confidence in what you’re doing. Either way: sucks to be you.
imemine	Date: November 16, 2007 @ 1:10 AM Piss off! You all suck!
Rodrica	Date: November 16, 2007 @ 4:09 AM Leeds...I hope your insults on this forum were not intended for me. Actually, you did get involved in an argument with another member on my page for which I had to block both of you. Sorry - I had no option. Let's make a few things clear here once and for all... Firstly, whilst I try and protect the rights of members of this site to block and delete anyone they choose, I have only TWICE IN 5 YEARS ever intentionally deleted anyone's comment on my songs. Once was when a nutter came on site insulting a number of DM members and again recently - YES, THAT'S TWICE! I had to delete one of your posts recently leeds. AT NO TIME DID I DELETE YOUR COMMENT/REVIEW OF MY SONG That is still there - go check! Both positive and negative points made in that post are there. In fact, as I didn't do the music to that song I took the trouble to check the point you made on the wav file, went to your page, THANKED YOU for your comment and said that as far as I could see the wav was fine but the mp3 compression lost some quality. No disagreement or problems from me on that score! What happened then? Another DM member rather abrasively and rudely disagreed with your comment in my comments box. I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT OTHER PPL SAY For some inexplicable reason, best known to yourself, you then RETURNED to my comment box to reiterate your point and continue a disagreement with another DM member. Whilst I can fully appreciate why you did that, there was obviously nothing to again by allowing you to argue with someone in my comments box. So I deleted the post that was arguing - NOT YOUR ORIGINAL COMMENT! I figured that if I allowed you to respond, then the other member would have responded too and it would have degenerated into a public brawl. Now...see my point of view - a non-DM musician had done the music for this track and was not only visiting the page himself, but sending people from other sites to the page. He was very excited about the collab. So I didn't want to disappoint him by allowing him/his friends to see a nasty argument ensuing on that page. Seriously...can you blame me. And I reiterate my point - YOUR ORIGINAL COMMENT WAS NOT DELETED!! I then blocked both of you from the public areas on all my pages while the dust settled. The aim was to make sure the argument did not continue. Probably by now I would have been unblocking the pair of you if I had seen that the situation was under control. On your behalf Leeds, I also had very firm words with the guy who insulted you and told him not to visit me on this site anymore because his attitude was too aggressive Let me also state that I have never, ever, deleted any of your previous comments - good and bad! Like I said, in 5 years here I have only had to delete 2 comments - both for good reason. If I was a, and I quote, "prima donna" I would have long since deleted all the points you've ever raised. And goodness knows, when you once suggested that the vocals on one of my songs was too low, I immediately remixed them and reuploaded the track! Some prima donna! I feel you should consider some of this before making sweeping derogatory statements in the forums. I am also not a coward. I didn't discuss the situation any further with you because I didn't have any argument with you. But I certainly told the other person in no uncertain terms that he had overstepped the mark in his reaction to you. So if I am one of the people you are calling names, then you are grossly in error. I am not here to referee other people's arguments. If you wanted to take issue with the other guy, fine, but do it on his or your page. I cannot be held responsible for situations which, in part, you instigated yourself by arguing with another member You were blocked recently to stop any further trouble - both of you. Not to be "in control". I hardly think that your argument with another member of this community is either my fault or warrants your outburst. I have tried to keep the peace in this situation and I've tried to put the other side of the argument in this forum because I know how deeply some people are troubled by negativity. In light of what I've just said, if you were including me in this nasty thread, then I want an apology. Maybe it's the person who insulted you in my comments box that you should save your venom for. Woof As far as I can see, I believe that non-subscribers cannot delete comments in their song comments box. I have recently stopped subscribing and it appears to be the case As for the rest of this sorry forum...I'm not going to attempt to keep the peace in future. Argue among yourselves. It really aint my problem.
GTOriginal	Date: November 16, 2007 @ 3:28 PM I leave positive, nontechnical comments on people's music all the time. I never suck up, I just like what I hear and say so. If I ever say: Dude, you ROCK! It's because... the dude rocks in my opinion. I enjoy listening to music without dissecting it. It's a lot more fun that way, for me. It's sad to see people get so upset about how others do stuff. Oh well, I'm gonna go out there and listen to some more tunes now. GT
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 16, 2007 @ 6:45 PM Rodrica, I have not mentioned your name once in this whole discussion so I don't know why you are venting on me, as you were not primarily who I had in mind. I have not been shouting and leaking information about you, so I don't know if your conscience is speaking but you should direct this to me privately, not in a public forum. You also seem to forget that although I made one other suggestion (and wasn't alone in that suggestion as we all wanted to hear your wonderful voice more prominently) on a previous song (which I praised, downloaded and told you how much I enjoy it on my mp3 player, once again, not exactly the stuff of Lucifer is it), I have commented positively on several other songs and made no suggestions. I thought you were an intelligent and serious artist who would appreciate it. Got that one wrong, maybe Although since YOU chose to air this in public, it is true that I am puzzled why you deleted my comment, you could have dnoted me and I would have been understanding. Instead of silently blocking me. My comment was a positive one with one piece of constructive advice, then some random dude attacks me. Maybe it was misguided to reply to that attack that my opinion was valid, especially as it reiterated the point that I enjoyed the performance. It wasn't exactly the stuff of demon seed y'know but if it caused offence I apologize. I will not be labelled as some type of negative flamer/trolling nuisance, that is just wholly libellous, as the majority of people in my daily life and here who know me can attest to. Like I said before, I'm a reasonable person, I would have been OK with a deletion if you'd only taken 5 seconds to note or shout me. Anyway, I will not waste anymore forum time on this, the offer is there for you to discuss it private Rodrica, should you have anything else to say. The opening thread originally had nothing to do with this. AORPete had a whole debate going on about feedback on his 'Say What You Want' collab and to my knowledge hasn't blocked anyone over it. He could delete all that stuff and block everyone but made an informed decision not to. I regularly see one or two posters commenting on 'rhythms out of sync, vocals flat' and I don't hear about them being blocked. And once again, my original reference was to someone else (2 people actually) of whom 1 has now unblocked me (without saying a word).
Rodrica	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 6:20 AM You just don't listen do you? For the 1000th time: I have never deleted any of your comments on my songs good or bad and I have accepted and acted on anything you said. I have only ever deleted 2 song comments posts in my time here Once again: I do not have a problem with people saying what they think in my comments box Of course I prefer good comments, but if someone feels compelled to say something else that's their prerogative. This is a democratic site. Again, for the 1000th time: The point I am making is that some people here DO NOT want it that way. Why can't you respect that? OK...in your opinion anyone, like myself on a couple of occasions, who has to delete something or blocks/refuses to enter into someone else's argument is, and I quote, either: a sycophant, sulky, weak, precious, a prima donna, etc etc. You have just said you "thought" I was an intelligent artist and that maybe you "got that wrong". And that's not insulting? The implications in way you phrase things are, I find, distasteful. You seem to employ these tactics to intimidate ppl and then swear blind in the next sentence that you are not doing it! Sorry, but it won't work with me. I can clearly see what you are doing and I don't think it is very nice. You say you appreciate a honest opinion, well I'm giving you one. I feel that your forum, given the names you are calling people and the way you phrase your insults, is little more than bullying. You seem to feel that there is your way, and the wrong way. You won't allow others to enjoy the site in their own way. They are not doing you any harm, even if they block you or delete your comment. So live and let live! By calling people names or identifying people as prima donnas or weak or whatever is little more than stating that someone is inferior for not behaving in a manner that suits you. That, I'm afraid is bullying. There ARE people on this site who are offended by what you have said, they are just too afraid to speak in public because of all the backlash. They haven't said so in public but a number of well respected DM artists have over the last year or two either left or are spending less time here because of all this. Some ppl just come here for some light hearted fun. What I'm trying to do is put a stop to forums like this because they just fabricate a load of trouble simply because the site is not operating strictly as that person demands. There are 100's of people on this site - we have to allow for everyone's opinion. You are getting totally over-the-top about what actually amounts to 3 blocks and/or deletions. And mine had NOTHING to do with your comments on my songs and ALL to do with stopping an argument. That's a different issue altogether. Understand this: Things are not entirely done or acted upon just because of a song comment. There are loads of other reasons why ppl do what they do here. How many songs have you commented on? How many people do you know? Quite a few! yet you are using phrases/language that basically insults a lot of members, merely over 3 incidents? I think you need to get things in proportion. I cannot stand by and allow anyone to suggest that people who make positive comments or prefer to just leave emoticons are in any way less genuine or, as you seem to feel, sycophantic. It will get to the stage here where nobody will want to post a comment at all! And sure, I accept the other stance too...if ppl want to criticize then that's their choice too. If ppl want to delete my comment I would accept that. If they want to block me, so be it. Freedom of choice. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, all this just serves to intimidate ppl into behaving in a way that suits you. Maybe ppl don't discuss their reservations about the site with you...but I can assure you there is a lot of dissatisfaction and uneasiness here and if we continue as we are then there will be no site at all. I take on board your feeling that some ppl need suggestions and a full critique of their work. So why not put yourself forward to moderate a special forum for this. Ppl could provide a link to the song they want feedback on and everyone can pile in with their suggestions. If you had come up with something positive like this it would have been far better than simply using derogatory words about other members of the community. You cannot say that you are not being a negative flamer (your words, not mine) and then use the kind of descriptions that I have listed above. It sends mixed signals. I also feel all this needs to be out in the open and discussed once and for all instead of all this clandestine whispering behind the scenes that goes on here. And yes, I'm sure you and a few other people are going to hate me for what I've just said. But I've got to the end of my tether here watching this site keep shoot itself in the foot. Now you can continue to be a friend who I respect, or you can decide you want nothing more to do with me. That's what freedom of choice is all about.
evansorchid	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 8:39 AM The plot thickens....
shadowself	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 9:17 AM Shit like this makes me reluctant to post ANY comments, and yes - it is a reason I have not been around here lately.
ebarbarella	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 10:03 AM this shit makes me sad i was not going to participate on this because i don't like arguing with people for that is enough in real everyday life.... i thought we are here to entertain not to get pissed off at each other and besides i think this is the reason why a lot of people don't want to come to DMusic anymore because they get upset here Leeds, i dont know what happened im reading here a lil bit and my response now is not to you or anybody in particular is just my general opinion on this matter damn you gotta get serious here I deleted only one coment, maybe two , but because that dmember was trying to be a smart ass with me, now """"there is a big difference between constructive critisism and a smart ass comment""""" We all know im not the best at leaving comments but when i do i put my heart on it not my brain... the emots are a lot help to express my feelings, so it doesnt bother me at all when i get a comment with a million emots! we are cool! sorry, i listen to more than 50 songs a day somedays more and most of the time i know when there is some wrong with the recording , but im not that "smart or clever" to leave a super expert producer comment in another person song, besides a great song is not a great song because is perfectly recorded with super pro-tools whatever now that great song for sure will sound a lot better if the recording was done perfecttly with a producer, sound engeneer ..... but A great song is just a song that express the emotion of the artist and is capture/understanded by the listener i think Beethoven said that 'Music should strike fire from the heart of man, and bring tears form the eyes of woman' another from Ludwig ... and he was a fucking perfectionist music is about emotions not perfection again this is just my opinion, you can disagree with it but again i'm not here to argue i come here and listen to music to have fun not to give other musicians a recording 101 lesson Now you are all more than welcome to leave it in my songs .... but understand that i usually already know whats wrong with our recordings and if the comment generates people arguing on my song, its going to get deleted, i hate arguing! and again sorry I am no that "smart" to leave you a criticism comment but you ll get a cheer for sure! because i respect everybody's work and honestly i don't care if your song its perfectly recorded, i argue with Vince about this all the time because he wants them perfectly recorded .... i just leave that to bands like, i dont know ... linking park out! ps ... i went off a little!
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 10:33 AM The whole point of bringing this up in the first place was to get people talking and more importantly, thinking. To see if there was any consensus one way or another. Which is why I did not bring individual names into it. I knew that by doing so would just lead to a non productive free for all in the style of the Dmusic redesign. Well it's on that route right now Clarke, shit like this makes me reluctant to post any comments too. I have an opinion on constructive criticism, so in the eyes of some I am evil. I make one statement to the fact that I am only going to comment on artists whom I know can handle that type of feedback and suddenly this is personal Rodrica, I like and respect your music and have commented positively several times and even in making a suggestion it was coming from a good place. And truly, this thread was not about YOU. I only knew you were blocking me when I went to write a shout to you to say how much I enjoyed your performance on shutyatrap radio and realized after it wouldn't send it 2 or 3 times then saw you deleted my final comment on your collab song. I was sad about that for a few minutes but had already forgotten it by the time I wrote the opening post on this thread. I did not go clandestine whispering about this thread, spreading rumours far and wide and knew I ran the risk of ultimately getting a bloody nose for starting this debate but I felt it was worthwhile because I know some others felt like they were walking on eggshells too with comments, as noted in the early part of this thread. You can ask anyone in my shoutbox or buddy list if I have been spreading rumours or name dropping and they will confirm I have not done this. At the end of the day Rodrica, it will be me that pays the price of hate, because you have double or treble the amount of contacts who will stick by you. And your actions did surprise and if I'm honest hurt me a little, as someone who admires your work. I have a major time battling depression and feeling rejected means that things like you're blocking me because of one comment and not communicating with me may be a minor thing but in my warped mind it magnifies a hundred times to become a very hurtful rejection. I can take people rubbishing my music but find it a lot harder to handle a personal rejection, especially one I felt was unfair or could have been easily solved with a little communication. So, I will just say that we have some differences of opinion. I don't hate you, I respect your musical talent and drive. Some piffling argument won't change that but I can't help but have my opinions and beliefs. And maybe I was wrong to make some digs, but sometimes a wounded animal lashes out in self defence. Anyway, people like Woof have made this an interesting debate and that was the original intention, so I'm sorry that the thread moved away from that angle and will now stay out of this. For anyone whom I offended, I apologize...
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 10:48 AM On 16th Nov 2009, imemine said: Piss off! You all suck! bloody troll
DeadraveN	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 10:53 AM First off, rodrica, and Leeds.. I've nothing but respect for you both, but c'mon... Chill out! take a step back and remember, this is an internet site! This is supposed to be fun! something happened, someone misunderstood someone's actions, and then reacted in a way that was in turn misread, etc. etc. etc... I don't think either one have you has honestly intentionally done anything worth squabbling about. My advice (whether it's asked for or not )is to sit back, take a deep breath, laugh at yourselves a bit.. post an "I'm sorry" and a " " and let it blow over. anyway, back to the topic at hand... I'd be willing to guess a lot of us are thinking the same things here.. I love hearing from Gary, as well as from Barbie, and many others like them. Their enthusiasm for music helps nurture the creativity of the artists here. and there is nothing wrong with encouraging your fellow musicians. Dmusic is better off for people like them.. I also love hearing from people like Israfel, tattoomom, Shadowmom, etc.. all poets who read into and comment on lyrics and the emotions in the songs here.. again, no need to be critical or get all technical on production aspects. Dmusic is better off for them as well.. I love hearing from Gene Hilbert, Alex Lindqvist, and the other extremely talented producers here. They always have some knowledge and insight to share, and I'm sure many of us here have grown as musicians and artists due (at least in part) to their comments.. Dmusic is better off for having them too... My point here is simply that we should all feel free to comment however the hell we please, and we should all appreciate the other users who take the time to listen to our music and leave any kind of comment at all. Honestly, I think the comment thing is taken a little too seriously sometimes. Put the egos aside... Be thankful for the praise, be thankful for the advice, and pay it forward!! seems easy enough, eh? and of course feel free to delete the random negative comments from internet trolls. No one needs that crap... Anyway, there's my 22 cents on the matter.
zedsalt	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:02 AM "...I felt it was worthwhile because I know some others felt like they were walking on eggshells too with comments" Well, there's your problem, right? I can't imagine anyone giving my opinion enough attention that it would hurt their feelings, and if it were to work out that way...as pitifully desperate for approval as I am...I can't imagine giving it a second thought. There are probably plenty of folks here who think it silly of me to even mention it, as I've stood accused before of being one of the ass-kissing, boot-licking, whatever-other-orally-fixated-gesture-of-obseqiuosness-one-can-come-up-with people mentioned a time or two in this thread. How many times have I been accused of such? Yeah, I have no idea...probably about the same as the number of people who think of me as a mean-spirited know-it-all. As to how many times either has happened, or who was making the remarks, sorry; I haven't really paid any attention to that.
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:04 AM Good advice. I've already said I'm sorry, which is sincere Hopefully, people will forgive me - eventually... The original aim was just to have a small but interesting discussion and I have let the monster run loose . That was uncalled for and I do apologize. I took a pill ...
DeadraveN	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:08 AM I say let the monster run, this is the most involvement these forums have seen in a long while!
BOWILLIE	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:11 AM ok. for the sake of saying for people who want technical and or a proffesional opinion on ones track* would it not be simpler to just have a special forum for people to paste the link to the track in? call it the forum for wanted and needed production advice? that way the ones who want that..gets it.. and leave the others to the way they are most comfortable? because in my eyes..changing things to suit a technical review format..would alienate 90% of new artists who join here (and the majority of people who are allready here) because alot like me..i put up tracks for the overall idea of it..not the technical side. any one of ours could probally stand proffesional revamping and on a few occasions thought to myself..why the hell did we put that up?..point in issue..lost my mojo..i personally think it sucked..out of key vocals in a few spots..eh.. uh..won reggea awards.. so the realization of its flaws again goes back to my original statement..its up for overall content...not the tech side of it... anyway..alot said above has its merits(pros and cons) and communication and hashing issues out is a good thing in the grander scheme of things. (and also..garage band uses the tech review system and i personal dumped that site years ago.
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:16 AM Well, Clarke... I have tried to note and shout you since our spat earlier in the year but since I was still blocked that's been impossible... Open to talking like a human being again if you want. As for someone making the overinflated ego comment (and knowing one of those it was aimed at) I'm going to refrain from the "pot, kettle, black" routine simply because they know they can't accept that it's fine for them to insult someone but not the other way around. And as for this heated debate between a few DMers I enjoy listening to and respect, do a collaboration or something!
theblacklodge	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:17 AM I think most who has followed this, knows and feels who seems to feel that "there is my way, and the wrong way". Don't worry Leeds, I don't think a vast majority are militant against critical comments. Dmusic is different than official websites because it is a community where people interact. That's not just a difference on the surface, it's a profound difference because it means that people might want to have a more personal relationship with the person they are interacting with. In a personal relationship (that works), or in any real community there is room for a number of opinions and comments that are both positive and negative. That's why I think dmusic has come a bit on the right way. For many users, the initial force towards politeness is gone and they feel secure to state both positive and negative comments. Seeing people making almost the exact same number of bowdowns to different songs is a sign that we are moving further away from what a community could be. For me the problem is not so much that all comments are positive but when they start to become almost identical. I don't think it's possible or desirable to force everyone into making technical, critical comments. And there are only so many variants of "you rock", but I also know that it doesn't tell me much and it tells me even less if you send it out to 35 different people . I'm all for the "this is all for fun" statement, and what I'm saying is in no way in conflict with that. If you're gonna speak for "what the people want" you better remember that they are in a community- I think the majority want to get what a community has to offer, out of their time here. If people have left the site it's not because of a miniscule fraction of negative comments. If people have left the site it's because it's dull, boring, to be on a community where you have a very few comments that feel individual and the rest are 'streamlined'. To only see streamlined comments (And by that I mean the same two-worders and emoticons on virtually all songs) show me that either people generally are "too polite" and don't feel secure in the community, or they don't feel they need to invest any time or energy into taking a stand about a song and making a comment that is directed to an individual. :ebarbarella: and others, I respect that you've taken a stand and what I'm saying is actually not directed at your comments. What I'm saying is that a bad community makes people who would be interested in making different comments to different individuals, not do so. I don't think all the people who come on the site and say "good song", have taken a stand to do that (and feel secure in themselves to take it). It would be crazy to set a "lower limit" in a comment and my point in this whole discussion is that there is no such "perfection" to be had. We're all individuals and I believe it's important to allow for a variety of ways to comment and not just having people taking after the way others comment. And I'm not being apocalyptic: I don't think that dmusic consists of only streamlined people and comments, but I think that putting additional pressure on the users to conform into saying only nice things will never solve any of the real problems. It will be a façade on the community's surface. But it's not simple, I understand that. A web community is not perfect, IMHO. Obviously some people don't feel they have the knowledge to make suggestions and there are too many comings and goings to get to know everyone. Dmusic will never substitute real life and the value that face to face feedback has to offer. But I think this would become a better community if new people were greeted with a feeling that "it's ok to say what you think here", critical or not. That they could see with their own eyes that people ARE able to, and WANT to invest some time and energy into saying what they feel. Seeing 44 comments out of 45 saying only "good song" (or "bad song", for that matter) tells the exact opposite. So either we accept that a web community has its limits and use it for what it can become, or we continue to strive for perfection. I believe in that imperfection, always. I don't think Leeds and Simon ever described a place where only a certain type of comments were allowed, they just adressed an issue that I too think can be resolved if people get over themselves. We shouldn't HAVE to walk on eggshells in this place. We'll always need to worry about "what will the person that I'm communicating to think?". But only because we'll want them to understand what we mean and not because we feel completely insecure that they would be broken down by criticism or would want to retaliate. I love the fact that one defense against negative comments come out of the need to protect people's feelings. Not only will they be disappointed that someone would actually think they could make a critical comment, but they will also be crushed emotionally. We all take any criticism personally, to an extent. But try obsessing about a negative comment at where you work- taking it completely personal. The people who obsess about a negative comment, who stalk users that don't attend to them by shouting back, who interpret silence as hell on earth (or anything of that nature), who really try to "pay back" after a comment. They put expectations on other users that are out of this world. They don't need a site with a public façade that has a sign saying "positivity only". They need therapy in real life.
theblacklodge	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:20 AM Aww Brady, you're much too mature for this thread
theblacklodge	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:22 AM Step out of the way.. Let the fight continue!!
aorpete	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:22 AM I know this thread is starting to sound like a stuck record... but my feelings are lets not get carried away... everybody here is doing what they are capable of an from what I have seen to the best of their abilities too... I think it's nice when people recieve a broad-spectum of comments in the sense of praise for any achievements that are made an constructive attributes on what can be truly improved upon... If people are going to be constructive I would urge you to be as diplomatic as possible taking onboard a few factors... The musicians capabilities... The equipment available to them... Are they doing their best... It is easy to get carried away an judge everybody by one standard an sometimes people are forgetting that most of us our just one-man bands in our back rooms doing what we do... We are not famous celebrities or high-profile so critism needs to be about what we can improve upon. I respect the opinions of many people particularly those who understand what it takes to produce the music from start to finish in all area's an overal I find their crits more than fair. Sometimes people seem to get carried away an criticise on elements they themselve do not bring to their own music an to a degree I see this as unfair in the sense they do not understand was is intailed from a pratical point of view... As for the deleting etc... it's not a thing I think anyone can say they would take pleasure in but... these sites we build are personal an generally reflect what we want to enjoy seeing an reading etc so from that premise I feel personal descretion is only fair... need not be take as offensive - at the end of the day if it's not our site we are commenting on we can't be-grudge the personal owner their rights to privacy etc... Also with the emote thingies... maybe there should be a preference switch to each site or maybe people should just post a note at the top of their journal or comments saying... "NO EMOTES!!!" Personally I don't mind either way... music effects me emotionally in such a way I can get very over-whelmed in the sense I find it easy to praise the good an like to go a bit wild sometimes when something HITS THE SPOT... So again... lets communicate rather than just write people-off over petie things like emotes etc... I guess enough said... but lets try an get a long an be a be more positive an polite to one another... AORPETE
ebarbarella	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:34 AM Alex there we have a great example of a person that can leave a Constructive Criticism comment without being rude or sarcastic! you are truly a very talented musician that can be honest and to the point when it comes to a comment and i respect that about you a lot!! my mention is not for people like you of course! is just the rude ones that they just want to start a fight which I am against! if we argue without us nobody would want to stay on this site, just my opinion I love DMusic!
ebarbarella	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:36 AM ^ment argue between us,
zedsalt	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:38 AM Pete ALMOST made an icon-free post! Yeah, I know; I'm sorry. Couldn't resist. Disclaimer: I like icons just fine, and using the blue dot for bullet points isn't the sort of thing that would rub me the wrong way even if icons bothered me.
aorpete	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 11:46 AM ZEDS!!! Stop-it!!! Your dry humour is killing me!!! (this one is not icon free I'm afraid... )
shadowself	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 12:28 PM On 17th Nov 2009, aorpete said: Also with the emote thingies... maybe there should be a preference switch to each site or maybe people should just post a note at the top of their journal or comments saying... "NO EMOTES!!!" I am usually not a big user of emotes, and usually rather indifferent to them. However, seeing a message from AbortiveMind with her excited bouncy happy faces can brighten three of my days.
SimonWaldram	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 12:41 PM On 17th Nov 2009, ChillinBuzz said: As for someone making the overinflated ego comment (and knowing one of those it was aimed at) I'm going to refrain from the "pot, kettle, black" routine simply because they know they can't accept that it's fine for them to insult someone but not the other way around. That's not quite true. Part of my point was that it is fine for people to insult me because I don't care anymore. Nevertheless, I went too far. I guess that's what happens when you post at 6am after being up all night. I went too far and I apologise to those it was aimed at.
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 1:22 PM Simon, there's nothing wrong with what you said at all although the personal side that's emerged as this thread goes on is veering slightly away from the actual problem, which was musical related rather than user... Well, that's how I see it, hence I ended my comment with wanting to see the opposing forces do something constructive rather than break the thread down into the very thing it sought to resolve.
SimonWaldram	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 1:30 PM I agree with that completely. I think the more personal the thread has got the less helpful it's become, and I certainly have to take a portion of the blame for that. Like you, I too hope something constructive can come out of this debate. There have been some good points raised on how we all communicate with each other, what ticks people off etc, so I'm hopeful we can indeed see some good out of it.
FraDonaghy	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 2:19 PM We don't really need the "comments" section at all if you think about it. - If a user wants to publicly say something to the artist about the song they can use the shoutbox. (ideal for praise.. genuine or otherwise). - If a user wants to privately raise some helpful points where the artist could maybe improve in future - they can use the note system. - And if the artist wants a list of "reviews" associated with the song, they can pick and choose from the two above areas, and using the wonders of copy & paste - put them into the song info on the artist page. As it stands, like Kingo pointed out, this topic keeps coming back every so often and we keep talking in circles about the same things.

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