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A new low for objective and constructive comments

ChillinBuzz	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 1:22 PM Simon, there's nothing wrong with what you said at all although the personal side that's emerged as this thread goes on is veering slightly away from the actual problem, which was musical related rather than user... Well, that's how I see it, hence I ended my comment with wanting to see the opposing forces do something constructive rather than break the thread down into the very thing it sought to resolve.
SimonWaldram	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 1:30 PM I agree with that completely. I think the more personal the thread has got the less helpful it's become, and I certainly have to take a portion of the blame for that. Like you, I too hope something constructive can come out of this debate. There have been some good points raised on how we all communicate with each other, what ticks people off etc, so I'm hopeful we can indeed see some good out of it.
FraDonaghy	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 2:19 PM We don't really need the "comments" section at all if you think about it. - If a user wants to publicly say something to the artist about the song they can use the shoutbox. (ideal for praise.. genuine or otherwise). - If a user wants to privately raise some helpful points where the artist could maybe improve in future - they can use the note system. - And if the artist wants a list of "reviews" associated with the song, they can pick and choose from the two above areas, and using the wonders of copy & paste - put them into the song info on the artist page. As it stands, like Kingo pointed out, this topic keeps coming back every so often and we keep talking in circles about the same things.
Woof	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 3:45 PM Here are some unvarnished thoughts. Make of them, what you will. An online artist community is a great place to discuss all kinds of things, including works in progress. It's a great place to interact, maybe make new friends, and it's even helpful to artists for picking up new fans for their work as they go. As blacklodge pointed out, by nature it's going to be a place for a lot of back and forth on any number of levels. Like any family, there are going to be arguments. And they will be private sometimes, and sometimes they will be public. What family doesn't have them? This is the nature of communities. Things sometimes happen in public that aren't pretty. It can't be avoided. Artists who are interested in hype, either for their own work, or for others of whom they've become a fan, are best served by starting their own sites for individual promotion. This offers a degree of selectivity in the messaging that simply can't be implemented gracefully when milling about in the masses. Being part of a community means working with both the positive and negative. This isn't only true for DM. It's true for any online artist community. I want to stress the gracefully part. Artists can be selective about what kinds of comments they receive, and who they "let in" in a community. But they will be perceived as stuck up for doing so. And that is the natural way of things. Deciding to be involved with a community means making room for everybody's thoughts and opinions... not just picking a select group of friends who worship us, and shutting the others out. There will be times when people show up who are so out in left field, that their behavior can't be tolerated by the community as a whole. In those instances, the offender is rejected by the group. Spammers and trolls fall into this category. When you join a family like this, there are people who will like you as a person, but not like your music. There are people who love what you do creatively, but not be at all fond of your personality. As I see it, that's just how it is. When we're spending a night out with our friends, we aren't constantly slathering them with a PR job for ourselves, or reading them our resume. We just exchange thoughts openly and honestly. And now that's happening here at DM. Some people like that and stay, others don't like it and decide to leave. That happens in towns everywhere. And it's the natural order of things.
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 4:24 PM On 17th Nov 2012, FraDonaghy said: As it stands, like Kingo pointed out, this topic keeps coming back every so often and we keep talking in circles about the same things. And we'll keep bringing it up until we manage to change something for the better. Sometimes things here take a while (and a dozen threads) to get sorted... And with new members arriving all the time, it'll be good to get more input.
Thaspian	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 5:15 PM I've heard music here that was downright horrible, and when I read the comments, there's this one barely noticeable thing about the song that everyone goes crazy about, and says "AWESOME!" It's part of why I don't go through all of the music here and rate it anymore. That and the fact that this site gives me slower download speed than my motherboard driver site in Taiwan. I don't feel like being the only dick to say "this sounds like nonsense"
FraDonaghy	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 5:38 PM On 17th Nov 2012, ChillinBuzz said: And we'll keep bringing it up until we manage to change something for the better. Sometimes things here take a while (and a dozen threads) to get sorted... And with new members arriving all the time, it'll be good to get more input. So if we take away the comments section, the site will become less comment orientated - a change for the better, seeing as it is seemingly so problematic. Just a suggestion. We still would have the possibility of receiving feedback (like I said in my last post) and would lose all the negativity. Any takers?
ebarbarella	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 5:58 PM I got a little upset earlier and just to be completly clear here. we never blocked anybody ever here and i only deleted one comment (dont remember if it was one or two from the same user) because it was hurting me not my music and it was back in '05 ... i dont even remember just wanted to make this clear because i notice reading the whole thing that some ppl just got confuse and thought that we blocked or deleted something ... we didn't . I know too that it has to be a misunderstanding between Rod and Leeds which hopefully get cleared very soon. Because they are both amazing artists and great people Lets all be friends and be nice to each other and most important you should not post on a forum if you don't know whats going on .... like i did earlier we are a community no doubt and we love to be a part of this one! Fra, you don't want my comments? if some artists dont want comments .... we can have an option where that artist don't accept comments. completly closed from your Artist Edit Tab options . like on my space, when you upload a song .... you can check in a box if you want comments or if you don't .... if you dont people cannot post on your songs... i particularly love comments and i love leaving them so for me the comments need to stay in DMusic, just a thought, but either way i dont think is going to happend soon, im still waiting for the updates on the DMusic Radio Box and nothing yet
theblacklodge	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 6:24 PM I think you're completely on the right track, woof! However I don't think dmusic is a family. I also don't think changing the way we comment will make things better. Let me try and explain why: - Dmusic is a community and sometimes closely resembles a family. But Dmusic is not and will never be a family (or a cult or any tight group like that). Why? Because I don't think there is enough close interaction on the site to create such a thing. I think people not only come on here for different reasons but also interpret the meaning of the site differently- what the point of being here is (as this whole thread shows btw!). The way that people come and go also makes it impossible. Also the way I see it, in a family or some kind of cult there are people who set the norms that everyone follows. And in this case that would mean norms that go deeper into what is allowed than the actual rules- like how to best make a comment, what to say, not to say etc. I don't see and I don't feel those norm-makers on dmusic. Sure, there are the intense discussions, but the voices are many and no real consensus is made, and anyway nobody is inclined enough to enforce one way of behaving (if it's not an official rule). I think it's the people who really feel this is a family, and expect people to act accordingly, who are stuck in deep shit on dmusic. They will never ever be satisfied because nobody takes that step forward to lead the way for others. The result for them is that they want the social satisfaction that a family brings but the users won't deliever it. Any user who leaves hugs and flowers for a while then becomes a traitor, a bad friend, (in the user's mind) if they don't continue doing that, in the future. What does this mean then? I think it means that being on dmusic will always mean being somewhere "in-between" a family and a site for promoting yourself. We'll have to be fine with the "not-all-the-way"-state of being on a music site. It means sometimes doing PR to our 'friends' and sometimes being more personal. The only thing we can't do is to pretend that "positivity only" can reign on dmusic. That will drain the blood out of the community and make people close themselves even more. I've made it clear that I'm not talking about people who feel secure in making only short comments. It's about allowing people to show as much of themselves as they want to. A community can do that- not an "official website". That's why I don't think we should remove the ability to make public comments (or divide it into positive/negative) because, in my opinion, it's one thing that really invites people to interact about the music. You see something that says comment for the first time. You check out what exactly this means by looking at what others have put in those comments and that will form the picture for you what kind of comments are allowed. If we remove that sign I think the interaction (about the music) will go down a lot. If we divide it into comments/suggestions I think we're making a user take an unnecessarily difficult stand about his/her comment. I agree with Barbie on this, it's sometimes not easy to analyse music and making it more complicated will drive some people away from raising their voice at all. I'm sure this place could lose its life as a "community", (erm, I think iacmusic is a fine candidate) but I don't want it to. So what now? First of all, we need to know that dmusic will not be a real family and place our demands on the other user accordningly. But I think there is more room for people to become more personal in the way they comment, to feel less inhibited. I think our task is to inspire the users on dmusic and show them that you CAN make a comment where you reveal more of yourself, like you would in a group that you feel comfortable in. The comments can be long, short, anyway you like. But it should be what they want to communicate to a user about a song. Even though they won't fully know the person they're communicating with, they'll need to know that it's ok to reveal more of yourself (than on a sterile, controlled, official page) without retaliation. They'll have to know that we're roughly in the same boat in the sense that we know the limits of being on a web-community. If we achieve that, then dmusic will be one hell of a community, IMHO
theblacklodge	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 6:38 PM Also, I agree with woof on another thing.. We need to accept heated discussions just as we have to accept them where we happen to work. I think that when we take a step towards interacting with others, and feeling more personal (and less polite), we'll need to accept that people want to show both happy and unhappy feelings. We're all adults so why the hell should we not be able to work things out like we do in real life? Like in this thread- full of negative emotions, but don't we learn to understand that emotions are a part of life, anywhere we go, and still try to work towards some kind of goal?
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 7:05 PM if we all thought the same way, life would be boring! comment disabling, like download disabling, would be a good option then?
Israfel	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 7:12 PM I personally don't think disabling comments is the way to go. Frankly, in my opinion, DM gets farther and farther away from the indie music site it could be. Disabling downloads on a site that is supposed to be all about free independent music was a silly idea to start with and one that just took it that much farther away from the independent spirit. Disabling comments will also take it even farther. It seems that the more we try to regulate how people act on this site, the more this site wilts away just a little. The free interaction through shouts and comments is what makes this site what it is. Take any part of that away, and we kill it. Just my opinion...
theblacklodge	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 7:14 PM Life would be hellish!
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 7:31 PM then the best thing would be to make it optional.
ebarbarella	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 7:46 PM Please don't disable the comments...
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 17, 2007 @ 10:07 PM i don't believe in disabling comments but that is my choice, nobody else's. as valid arguments are circling for both enabling and disabling then it can only be resolved best by making it an option. that is going to be the only way to please the most people. at least then if someone complains you just tell them to disable comments although i am sure someone will find fault with this too, however it's going to be much less of an issue if people have a CHOICE... starting to feel like a Matrix film here.
Woof	Date: November 18, 2007 @ 1:04 AM It does look like giving everyone the option to disable comments if they want to is probably the most do-able solution at the moment. At least people wouldn't waste time commenting on work only to find their writings deleted. Of course, it would be every artist's choice whether they wanted to enable comments on their pages or not... so don't worry, Barbie... if you want 'em the feature is there for you. I guess it wouldn't hurt to send a DNote to Jack and see how easily this could be done, because if it's a major task, that kills the idea right there. But it sure shouldn't be. I'm not saying note him and ask him to implement this... just ask how easy it would be to do, if it turns out that we're in agreement that we should go this route. Seems sensible to me.
ShadowMom	Date: November 18, 2007 @ 1:12 AM Sending Jack a Dnote probably won't accomplish as much as starting a thread in the Suggestions forum. Then Jack could respond to all the comments on the subject.
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 18, 2007 @ 8:43 AM in theory it would not be difficult, since the comments section is procured from the database, a variable with 0 or 1 as its value dictates whether the page displays the comments and the form box below it. basically an on/off switch. i'm just going on previous experience of when we added bits and pieces to the profile pages. well, if someone wants to make the suggestion, go for it.
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 18, 2007 @ 8:44 AM actually, it would probably require a new database entry to store the value for each user... so you'd have to ask the coders (and while you're at it, let them know that whoever fiddled with the recent activity section during the last week somehow lost the opening quote on a song name when someone streams/downloads/comments an artist song)
zedsalt	Date: November 18, 2007 @ 10:38 AM Anything that preserves the Comments feature as it sits would be worthwhile. I mean, it seems to me that the ability to block other users is the only real problem this thread addresses, not the Comments themselves, but then, I also can't imagine any situation in which I would care whether or not someone deleted a comment I made. After all, if he/she/they delete it, then I'm going to assume that he/she/they read it, and I couldn't care less if anyone else does.
zedsalt	Date: November 18, 2007 @ 10:41 AM On second thought, I suppose I can see one use for making the Comments viewable by everyone- a dear friend of mine/fellow DMer who is in the same boat as I (can't stream, downloads take forever) told me he doesn't listen to anything that doesn't have Comments that pique his interest.
FraDonaghy	Date: November 18, 2007 @ 8:37 PM Just on the topic of suggestions based on this debate - I made a mock up picture of a possible DMusic page of the future. I know this would involve a lot of work, and I am not looking to stir up another re-design argument but just for the sake of debate, what do you think of this... I know it is not the best quality of editing etc, but it gets the idea across - ie, putting the music front and centre on ONE page along with the user features. Comments would be encouraged to be made via those user features because the songs are in plain sight - and also it might bring a bit more attention to the songs as they are no longer hiding on a second page behind a tab. Granted, this is a very MySpace type arrangement, but it works for them. To those of you with the technical know how from the last redesign, how hard would something like this be to implement? Anyone else any opinions on it? (Other than "Fra, I think you should shut up".)
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 19, 2007 @ 7:17 AM On 18th Nov 2012, zedsalt said: On second thought, I suppose I can see one use for making the Comments viewable by everyone- a dear friend of mine/fellow DMer who is in the same boat as I (can't stream, downloads take forever) told me he doesn't listen to anything that doesn't have Comments that pique his interest. The bottom line is, if an artist doesn't want feedback, then it's their choice. It sounds crazy to not want feedback if you're a musician but I guess if they don't want the publicity, the constructive comments and the interaction with the site, so be it. Nobody can force them...

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