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SONG FEEDBACK (take 1)

rolar3	Date: May 29, 2008 @ 12:53 PM One of my favorite things about Dmusic is getting feedback on my music. There is a fine line between constructive criticism and just being nice. The nice comment soothes the creative artist soul and criticism hurts feelings. I think we should all be a little more honest about what we are commenting on. Not for the ego of the artist, but for the main reason we are here to begin with....THE MUSIC! Our ears beg of us to be honest with our DMusic family members. Another take, and a tweak of this or that, could really make a difference as we all try to improve on our skills....I await feedback on this...LOL
GTOriginal	Date: May 29, 2008 @ 1:41 PM There's constructive criticism, and there's being a dick. Constructive criticism has really helped me refine some of my stuff lately, esp. Beatle covers. A thousand ears is better than two... However, always beware of the petty asshole who disguises their BS in a shroud of constructive criticism. This is not always easy to identify but a good rule of thumb is not to put stock in any critique that doesn't explain itself. By way of example: "Your drum track is too loud, it drowns out the rest of the mix and hurts my ears" is constructive, because it includes an explanation of what is wrong with the track. "Your drum track is terrible, but the guitar sounds superb". This could be a well meant statement, or it could be simply a jerkoff firing a shot into an otherwise positive uplifting comment. Why is the drum sounding terrible? Too loud? Bad panning or set selction? Personally I appreciate all listens and comments, but explanation is key to constructivity. You may tell me I'm great or I suck, and I will either smile or frown. But tell me why and I may actually look at the track again...
rolar3	Date: May 29, 2008 @ 1:47 PM nicely put....
MultiMike	Date: May 29, 2008 @ 2:09 PM Gary, you have just said everything that really needs to be said, I hope all Dm members read this and take notice
ShadowMom	Date: May 29, 2008 @ 5:07 PM I started to comment, but it wasn't constructive, so I changed my mind. But ... but ... OKAY! I promise not to say anything anymore unless I can say something constructive.
mdearing	Date: June 2, 2008 @ 10:14 AM I think one of the hardest things people struggle with when reviewing music is to be objective when the style of music isn't really their cup of tea.
GTOriginal	Date: June 2, 2008 @ 2:01 PM Not really marching with the Genre Fetish Brigade myself, but there are one or two styles I do not particularly care for. Guess what? I don't listen to those styles by choice, and therefore don't review the songs... No law says that the comments field is only for critical reviews either... This is the single most remarked upon/argued about topic in all of DM history, and when you get right down to it, it's pointless... Some of the talent on this site is beyond my ability to "critique", so I revert to stating whether or not I like the stuff and leave it at that.
GeneHilbert	Date: June 2, 2008 @ 2:57 PM Some aren't comfortable commenting on things they don't understand or lack the experience and vocabulary to express clearly their opinion. As a result you'll get the generic "way to go" , , or not my preferred style. Or other examples sited earlier. I try to be as clear as possible as to what I think could be improved upon. Or what I like. And at times there is not much I find worthy in an effort. As a result I don't comment. Although the attempt alone makes the effort worthy I prefer not to comment instead of placating. Sad to say but I still do it..... Unless people seek me out, then they get what they want, an honest assessment. I guess my best explanation is that my comments may be viewed as harsh or nitpicky, although I try to be fair. The fact remains that there are novice players here that don't give a shit about being a profession musician. They just want to be around it and to have fun with the experience. Which is very kewl…… and I applaud that. The trick is - knowing the difference.......
Rodrica	Date: June 3, 2008 @ 2:17 AM This has been a long-running debate on this site and a lot of people disagree with my views. You want honesty? OK here goes: 1. I only accept harsh "critiques" on private note. Otherwise I just assume I may be dealing with someone on an ego trip who intends to harm rather then help. Gary's right...there are @@$holes and fits of jealousy occasionally. 2. I think it's bad manners to be publicly critical of someone you hardly know and who has not offended you. Moreover, to do it on their artist page says more about the lack of decorum of the reviewer than the artist's' music. 2. Beats me how anyone can give an accurate "critique" when listening to an mp3 - the sound/levels compared with a .wav file/cd are absolutely dire. Even at 320, it doesn't accurately represent the original mix. For this reason I only make general observations. 3. How the hell can anyone make suggestions when they have no clue as to what the artist's equipment/studio set-up is? It may be totally impossible for someone to do what is required of them due to financial or equipment limitations. No good recording engineer will attempt to give you advice without actually being in your studio, seeing your equipment and watching how you use it. 4. Gene's right - not everyone wants a "critique", they're just here for fun. Alternatively, those who do want to do a professional job invariably tend to discuss their music more openly with their own choice of mentors. 5. If I don't like something I either only mention the positive aspects (and an artist doesn't have to be Einstein to work out how to interpret that), or I don't comment at all...unless I'm specifically asked something on note. I find I don't have to use a great deal of restraint to refrain from saying "that's awful" in public. Maybe what this site needs are two boxes - a "fans/support" box and a "critique" box, the artist should be able to choose whether either appear on his/her page. Otherwise we might just drive away the few remaining members left - nobody wants to feel like they've just walked into a classroom every time they upload a piece of music (lectures by teachers and bullying by peers). I'll shut up now
GTOriginal	Date: June 3, 2008 @ 4:19 AM Don't shut up. You are living proof that honesty doesn't have to be disrespectful or mean. I for one, am only in this for fun, so not interested in being a "pro musician". BUT that doesn't mean I don't try to make it sound good, just that I'm giving it away instead of selling it. I don't think a second field is the answer. It would be better if everyone relaxed a little more and kept more of an open mind. Lke Rodrica, if there's something real ugly about a track (an error, out of tune instrument etc), I will note the person instead of calling them out of school. This gives the artist an opportunity to address the issue privately without making the world aware of it. I would expect the same courtesy as well. The problem with the internet is many people feel it's OK to throw their standards out the window because it aint "the real world". My take? Act like you are speaking to the person's face from punching distance, and have some class. Well, have at it folks, I got a motorcycle to ride and a guitar to strum.
moam	Date: June 3, 2008 @ 5:32 AM First of all, part of being a musician is taking criticism. The second you picked up your guitar and decided to start making songs to share with the world was the second that you need to realize... "Hey, not everybody will like my stuff!" You know what you need to do? Not get so butt hurt about every piece of criticism and move on. Either use the advice to improve or if you think that person is full of shit or if you think their "crit" was just asshole-ish greater-than-thou talk, ignore it! If the crit was really horrible enough, just delete the comment! Seriously, if you're really THAT insecure that you can't get criticism ever--then you shouldn't be an artist. Like it or not, that is part of being an artist because as I said, not EVERYONE will like your stuff. I take my music very seriously and I feel very confident about my sound by now, but I get just as much crit as anyone else and yeah, sometimes it does hurt a little bit to see it, especially when I'm so confident about a song that I see nothing wrong with it. But what do I do when someone gives me criticism? I analyze it, apply it to my music, see if I agree, decide whether or not I should take it to heart, then move on. There have been many occasions where I haven't used someone's advice because I just didn't agree with it! And if you have shitty equipment and you're making music, instead of banning any criticism, EXPECT comments that will mention the sound quality. If you know your sound quality is awful, criticism about your sound quality SHOULDN'T bother you. People who don't understand the "kiss everyone's ass" DM style around here and go listen to a track thats utterly horrible quality will, I almost promise you, mention it. They aren't doing anything wrong. They're just commenting. I mean, if someone is an asshole about it and leaves rude comments then yeah, that's really obnoxious (even though I don't let those bother me either because I either come to my senses that my music isn't EVERYONE'S style and I get over it, or I just look at the dude as a blabbing, jealous, talentless cunt who has no open mind for music). Seriously though people, there is nothing wrong with criticism, and if you believe there is, you shouldn't have your music on the internet. Simple as that.
leflaw	Date: June 3, 2008 @ 6:05 AM Should we make the ability to comment optional on a per song basis when you upload?
GTOriginal	Date: June 3, 2008 @ 9:50 AM Or simply give the option to remove comments to subs and nonsubs alike. On the one hand, moam is 100% correct in his statement that crits are part of art (not just on the internet, but on the street where people can actually throw shit at you). On the other hand, there should be a means of dealing with aggressive bullying assholes that choose to target your tunes on the web. If as moam said, you don't agree with some of that crap, why should you have to leave it there for future listeners to read and prejudice themselves with? We are beginning to see just how passionately some users feel about this topic, and that it will never be resolved between the two basic schools of thought. But all users should be allowed to control the content of their pages, regardless of how well they accept criticism, or how well they deliver it.
rolar3	Date: June 3, 2008 @ 12:19 PM Wow...I touched a chord with this topic. I lean towards Moam's perspective on this. From my perspective,(All I really have to go on) I want to use feedback as a tool to improve my tracks. That's what's so cool about music is it can always be better. I like the idea of sending criticism privately and compliments openly. That's a great way to handle this issue. Hopefully one day we can all fly up to Leflaws house and have the largest live concert ever. Wow....
evansorchid	Date: June 3, 2008 @ 3:40 PM On 3rd Jun 2009, moam said: Seriously, if you're really THAT insecure that you can't get criticism ever--then you shouldn't be an artist. Wow Moam....I actually wholeheartedly agree with something that you've said. & On 3rd Jun 2009, leflaw said: Should we make the ability to comment optional on a per song basis when you upload? No
moam	Date: June 3, 2008 @ 4:12 PM On 3rd Jun 2009, evansorchid said: Wow Moam....I actually wholeheartedly agree with something that you've said. I feel loved
Rodrica	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 2:56 AM Larry...in answer to your question, I'm with Gary. I'd like to see both subs and non-subs have the facility to delete any comments they don't want on their page. That would ensure that we keep up with the "delete" function that many music sites now offer their non-subscribers as a means of protection from nutters. I doubt we will have to use it very often, but at least it would be nice if it were there, because you are always going to get an occasional weirdo! Personally I find that the majority of people who comment on my music are polite and helpful. I have only had about 3 loonies in all the 6 years I've been on site. But we are an open, broadcast media and we should apply the same rules of protection. We're not here to put up with unprovoked vitriol passing nutters on our own pages. I agree with Moam - nothing wrong with constructive criticism. I'll take whatever people want to give. But only on note. I stand by what I said earlier. Those who launch bitter attacks on artists in public are not trying to help...they're just being vindictive. Also, what's the point in boring people senseless with "advice" if they just don't want it? It wastes everyone's time. And like I said...this is a music website, not a lecture room. Give people the freedom to enjoy it in their own way. We need to accept that there are both helpful and unhelpful people on the web - it's not an either/or situation and we need to plan for all eventualities. For those who want full-scale critiques on their songs - why not adopt the same idea as I've seen on another site? Have a forum for them. Submit a song and let people discuss it at length...at least then you'll know for sure that the artist is willing and wants a critique.
zedsalt	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 3:44 AM I don't have anything to contribute, really, to the discussion; I'm just wondering out loud if in Gary's reference to people "throw(ing) shit", "shit" is a blanket term for material/objects in general, or actual fecal matter. After all, here in the good ol' U.S. of A., "assault by bodily waste" is a specific crime with specifically set penalties. And if anybody has recorded anything that has actually resulted in people throwing feces at them, please post it here, as I'm more than a little curious to hear it. Thank you. Oh, and like I say pretty much every time this topic comes up- options: good, mandates: bad, good and bad comments on my stuff: good.
ShadowMom	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 4:16 AM Every user has the option of asking admin to remove any offensive material, from song comments, shoutboxes, or almost anywhere else. The fine line is.. what one person finds offensive is not always the same as the next person. And please, the negative comments, if done diplomatically, are just as valid as the positive ones. Not every track that is posted is good, if you want to be honest. Having a site full of only and is going to cause a lot of casual visitors who MIGHT stay around to have second thoughts. But then, so will discussions about fecal matter. I think Rocky's original post, however, dealt with a desire for MORE technical reviews, not that he doesn't want any/all comments-- but a simple desire for more input from those with the musical expertise to say-- this should be tweaked, that should be muted, the timing in that one passage was off a bit, etc. I don't think he intended to start another wildfire about good/bad reviews. Now Rocky can tell me if I'm wrong. I can take it.
Rodrica	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 5:04 AM The thing is...how can people hear the stuff well enough to give really good technical advice without being sent a .wav file? I had an example recently when sent both a .wav file and 320 mp3. The quality, mix, levels, etc seemed far superior on .wav and some instruments on the mp3 were missing altogether! I'm a bit worried that detailed advice based on mp3's is going to be way off the mark. Then you've got the vast differences between an analogue studio and a digital one to consider as well (in terms of what can be achieved). Not to mention the peculiarities of certain hardware units or specific software. But if that's what some ppl want then why not try a critique forum and see how many people genuinely want a full critique/to offer criticizm? We could see how it works out. Lol..and I hope next time somebody appears at the Albert Hall they don't do what we all do on indie music sites, or they'll have 1000's of people coming up on stage to tell them in detail where they went wrong, how to tweak the sound and how many times the mic popped. They could be there for weeks...
GTOriginal	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 5:41 AM Having two sets of standards for paying or non paying customers is not the best way to handle this, which is why many of us became nonpaying customers in the first place, myself included. I had a series of subtly offensive comments on my page (that had nothing to do with music) a few years back. When I asked the admin to remove them, my request was denied because that particular admin did not find the remarks offensive enough. I ended up deleting and reuploading the songs and wiping dozens of comments in order to get rid of the stupid ones. I dumped my subscription that day and did not resubscribe until the feature was added. Comment removal is not a selling point for the site, quite the opposite. The lack of comment removal for trial accounts is a deterrent to subscribing for many who might otherwise.
GeneHilbert	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 6:10 AM On 4th Jun 2009, Rodrica said: The thing is...how can people hear the stuff well enough to give really good technical advice without being sent a .wav file? I can see concede the difference if we were discussing EQ settings for mastering. But as far as arrangements, flow and energy, instrument levels & balance, vocal pitch & diction, signal strength & noise floor, differentiating between sloppy or amazing technique, production & mixing standards. There is more than enough information in an mp3 to make those judgments.
GeneHilbert	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 6:13 AM I like the song comment option as it is and I see no reason to change that.
mdearing	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 8:28 AM I can see concede the difference if we were discussing EQ settings for mastering. But as far as arrangements, flow and energy, instrument levels & balance, vocal pitch & diction, signal strength & noise floor, differentiating between sloppy or amazing technique, production & mixing standards. There is more than enough information in an mp3 to make those judgments. [/QUOTE] I agree 100%.
mdearing	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 8:29 AM I don't think I did that quote thing right.
rolar3	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 11:48 AM Yes Mom...you were right on the money as to what I meant in my original post.
Distilled1	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 11:53 AM On 4th Jun 2009, mdearing said: I can see concede the difference if we were discussing EQ settings for mastering. But as far as arrangements, flow and energy, instrument levels & balance, vocal pitch & diction, signal strength & noise floor, differentiating between sloppy or amazing technique, production & mixing standards. There is more than enough information in an mp3 to make those judgments. I agree 100%. [/QUOTE] 100% here too!~
GTOriginal	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 1:00 PM You really can't win once people start evaluating comments. If you like the song, you can't simply say so because you are accused of buttering the artist up and being insinsere. On the other hand it is almost impossible to critique a song without assuming a superior position which may or may not be justified. As a nonsub, I can't delete the occaisonal trash remark I find, and in my opinion the site is flawed and losing revenue for that very reason, among others. I can however turn my comments off using buddy lists and block features. I have not done this yet because the few people who listen and comment have always been respectful and or genuinely helpful in their remarks, public or private. I am finished spinning my wheels here in this thread (nonpaying customers do not have valid opinions on DM anyway), so I sincerely hope you all enjoy the back and forth until the end of time. Merry-Go-Rounds are fun but eventually they get you dizzy. GT
Rodrica	Date: June 4, 2008 @ 9:01 PM I have to agree with Gary. I also saw the comments that he had to put up with a few years back. They were not aimed at his songs but him personally. They were upsetting for both him and his family and totally unreasonable. We really do need to address this problem if we are going to continue to have comments. But as he rightly says...those ppl are in the minority. Mp3's: Sure you can hear a lot of things. But definitely not all. In a whole mix, one thing tends to impact on another. Nobody has explained why we don't have a critique forum. That way we can not only link to an mp3, but if necessary could provide a link to a .wav file for downloading. Doesn't that make sense for anyone who wants comprehensive technical discussion on their music? Or alternatively: Provide deletion for non-subs too. Or: Have 2 types of comments boxes: Fans box and critiques box - artists being able to enable/disable either when uploading a song. There's no point in us keep arguing, we must come up with ideas to suit all - I've offered 3 solutions so far. Maybe someone can come up with a few more.
zedsalt	Date: June 5, 2008 @ 3:35 AM The big problem with a critiques forum, it seems to me, is that hardly anyone would use it. Isn't that how Soundclick operates, or at least used to, or am I thinking of some other site? I've been a member there for a little shy of a decade, and I'm thinking I looked in on that forum once. That's one of the things that keeps me coming back to DM on a daily basis- wanting to check for new comments, not go too awfully long before thanking people, answering any questions, etc. I check the music pages (still seems kinda silly that we have separate pages for music) of collaborators every day, even the ones where the tune got sucked into the server failure black hole, y'know, just in case they come back. Heck, I even look in on Henri's music page every once in a while, again, just in case he comes back.
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: June 5, 2008 @ 10:50 AM The only way to get a consensus even though I don't like it, is to either give people the ability to have some kind of notification/flag saying whether they welcome constructive feedback or not. A couple of people have labelled me as 'being unfair' or possibly insane because I gave some constructive feedback (in what I thought was objective and rational way), which I initially thought was vanity and insecurity on their part, but then again, I don't know all the variables, so it is difficult. Since then, I rarely bother because I'm not into 'hurting' people's feelings, or just STFU and keep it to myself. Personally, I enjoy constructive crits when delivered objectively. Nobody should welcome bullying comments, or personal 'you suck' comments. With regard to sound quality, if people mention on the track info (recorded at XYZ megastudio, recorded on a home DAW with some plugins, recorded on a knackered old 4 track tape recorder with worn heads or recorded using a 10 dollar radio shack mic live in my bedroom etc) people should adjust any mix critiques accordingly. I find it interesting too to read how it was recorded and whether it was analog, digital, computer, tape or whatever. Then again I am a loony geek and am probably out of touch and way off base with the 'beautiful people' here
GeneHilbert	Date: June 5, 2008 @ 6:29 PM You are the "beautiful people" and I'm proud to be able to hang out with you..... "cough, cough"
Rodrica	Date: June 6, 2008 @ 12:06 AM Zed...do you think it's possible ppl don't entertain the idea of a critique forum because, generally, they prefer to have lighter comments made on their music? You can see by the limited number of ppl who have responded (and the number of ppl who have already left/spend less time here) that most ppl aren't willing to discuss this subject openly or admit they don't want overly harsh criticism for fear of being branded a pussy or being landed with a heap of sarcasm. On the subject of soundclick - yes they have a critique forum, but they also have a music page comments box which includes a 1 - 5 star rating system by which ppl can grade your production, overall song, vocals, lyrics etc. if they choose...and moreover, ALL artists have the ability to delete anything they don't like/want on all their pages. Seems to suit all points of view and addresses both sides of the argument, because you will never prevent personal bias entering the equation. The stats are good and so is the interaction and support. There is also an ongoing commitment to preventing misuse/chart fixing. I'm not raising these things to make comparisons or to score points - but because I'd like to see this site doing well and increasing it's numbers. The irony here is that everyone is making a point about "constructive" criticism. Yet there have been very few "constructive" suggestions about how to resolve the criticism/advice issue.
zedsalt	Date: June 6, 2008 @ 4:00 AM Personally? I have only the vaguest of notions as to why I've never used the critique forums. And why is it that I just CAN'T "get into" gameshows shown in primetime? Sometimes, it's even one that I enjoy on the occasional afternoon. Baffling. Every site of DM's sort that I can think of encourages reviews, promotes them as a way of bringing in listeners to one's own music. Whatever DM did/said differently in this regard worked on me. I almost never listen to a tune here without commenting, and I doubt the whole comment-as-self-promotion idea has had any real bearing, as I honestly don't pay attention to who is and isn't "returning" comments. When I look at the review/critique forums elsewhere, they are almost entirely...well, call 'em what you want..."positive", "boot-licking", "encouraging", "pointless", "fanvertising", etc. And each site seems to have it's resident meanies. I'm not talking about people who post things like, "Dude, you suck" without further explanation (those folks don't seem to last long anywhere); I'm talking about two or three people who pick every little thing apart and get downright nasty in how they express their opinion. Other artists seek them out, solicit comments from them, because they also make helpful (potentially helpful, anyway) suggestions. It'd be interesting to study the differences between DMusic...where an extremely high percentage of listens get comments...and those sites where it's not uncommon to see...what? tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?...of listens without comment.
GeneHilbert	Date: June 6, 2008 @ 5:39 AM My opinion on a lack of a critique forum comes in the form of questions. Which are...... Wouldn't a dedicated critique forum be redundant? Since we already have song comments. And wouldn't they just be something else to to code and maintain?
mdearing	Date: June 6, 2008 @ 5:43 AM I like Rodrica's solutions and some of the others. Here's another: If critique is what you are looking for, put a statement of the comment page of a song soliciting feedback. For those who are giving feedback, always treat the person with respect and remain objective. A problem doesn't exist unless there is a solution to make it better. Otherwise it's just a complaint.
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: June 6, 2008 @ 7:55 AM Thanks Gene ! Dude !! (I give my old Atlanta Brave a bearhug and a slap on the back ) Everyone has so many different opinions and ideas that it is difficult to forge a workable plan that works as a compromise for everyone. Having options for everything seems fair, but where does it stop. After comments it will be the shoutbox, forum, or new pages. In life we take the rough with the smooth and learn to deal. So while this debate is genuinely interesting, and there are some ideas which are good, will it ultimately benefit us. And the other problem is that the site must have other priorities, after the hammer blow of the outage and slow progress to having most core functionality restored, is there the time the money and the IT talent available to implement changes ?
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: June 6, 2008 @ 7:55 AM new pages = NEWS pages. Doh !
GTOriginal	Date: June 6, 2008 @ 9:35 AM Many artists don't take criticism well at all. Van Gogh comes to mind right away, and if pressed I can probably rattle off a dozen others. Sensitivity goes with the artist package, but the type of criticism I keep reading about here has little to do with art, and more to do with engineering and science. The key is to recognize and acknowledge the difference, and respect thy fuckin' neighbor in a community environment.
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: June 6, 2008 @ 12:30 PM Yes, but there's criticism and there's CRITICISM. Constructive criticism is not delivered as an assault on the end user, it is designed to be an objective difference of opinion. CRITICISM is a personal attack. The kind of thing that gossip columns revel in or things like TMZ.com (did you see that godawful dress she was wearing, she looked like a sack of potatoes etc). The majority of people understand this, but some people only want the brown nosers and platitudes and cannot possibly except there might be an alternative way to do something. That alternative mught not be better, and ultimately the constructive feedback might be processed and you still think - Nah. What is he/she thinking !!! but the fact someone took time to listen carefully and make some suggestions is just totally stellar in my book. I've had a couple of times where people have done it to me and initially I was oversensitive to it, but then thought about it later and admitted to myself 'they have a point'. Anyway, some kind of ability to turn comments off or on or to notify that you welcome constructive feedback seems to be the way to go, my usual attitude would be 'if you don't want comments, don't post your music' but in these dire times of declining numbers, it seems that we must keep the few people left happy and healthy, so if it is not difficult or expensive to implement, then it should de done.
zedsalt	Date: June 7, 2008 @ 3:09 AM Change yet another basic function of the site, adding a step or two to what used to be a one-click process? What is is that they call that, when one keeps doing essentially the same thing over and over, expecting a different result every time?
GeneHilbert	Date: June 7, 2008 @ 5:15 AM If you want to improve as a musician you need to be open enough to let people interact with your music. That's what it's all about. This is an emotional art form. Music affects the primordial psyche. It’s the evocation of emotion that draws us to it. Sheltering yourself from that “pro or con” defeats the whole purpose. If music wasn’t about development and progress – we still be dancing to bass drums, hand clap and grunts and groans…….. Wait - did I just describe Hip Hop…..? LOL – but I regress. My blathering point is. When you get to a point where your ego is too sensitive to be able to except criticism, justified or not. Discuss technical, scientific, or purely emotional aspects of your art. Can only except or are only willing to except praise as validation. You cease to grow. On 7th Jun 2009, zedsalt said: Change yet another basic function of the site, adding a step or two to what used to be a one-click process? What is is that they call that, when one keeps doing essentially the same thing over and over, expecting a different result every time? I got your back on that one.......
evansorchid	Date: June 7, 2008 @ 5:30 AM I wanna meet this Primordial Psyche guy. He sounds like an interesting character.
GeneHilbert	Date: June 7, 2008 @ 6:00 AM
Rodrica	Date: June 7, 2008 @ 7:24 AM To answer your points Gene, yes a forum would appear on the surface to be an unnecessary addition. However, nothing is unnecessary if we are losing members at the rate we are at the moment - many of them over the lack of page control/comments issue. Maybe if we had such a thing the "comments" section would just have to be called "fans comments" or some such. It would also be a bit unwieldy to have a full critique on an ordinary comments box - a forum would seem better set up for that, and you have the advantage that only artists wanting to participate would be involved - no misunderstandings. Alternatively what about my other suggestion? Two boxes? One for "fans", one for "critiques"? At the moment I'm totally confused what ppl want. I've been on both sides of the fence. If I've left a suggestion on a song by an artist who claims to want "contructive criticism" I've had a reaction ranging from a shoutbox full of excuses and objections, to ranting at me on note and trashing my songs as some kind of revenge. Then on the other hand when I concentrate on the positive aspects of a song and approach things in a diplomatic way, I've been accused of being dishonest or a sycophant. Can't win can you? The thing I find most confusing are ppl who call for a critique then get very upset when they get it! Frankly I'm not that concerned myself about comments one way or the other - if it got on my nerves that much I'd just leave the site. I just feel that the "silent majority" on here need a voice. They're too intimidated to speak up. If you want a personal opinion about comments per se, I'm grateful to everyone who listens - if they criticize I will either think "thank you" if it's from a friend or "dickhead" if it's from some loudmouth I hardly know. Simple as that. Nobody has answered my question as to why those who want to wade in with harsh criticism never do it on note - it always has to be very public. How much effort would it take to approach the subject subtly on note at first until you know how you stand? If ppl won't do that it's small wonder that their motives are often questioned. It also seems to be expected that everyone who posts music should accept all comments aimed at them. Not so. Virtually all signed artists "approve" the comments that are allowed on their pages. We should be aware that some ppl on site look upon their pages in this way, whilst others prefer the unrestricted "interactive" approach. Again, it's all down to providing choices - something this site will have to address if it is to remain competitive. I think mdearing's idea is a good one and easily implemented.
LiQuidMetamo...	Date: June 7, 2008 @ 8:11 AM The Dnote is a much under used method of communication and I bet there is a sizeable % who don't know how to use it anyway. Experienced DM'ers forget about it too, which is why we see the number of flaming wars going on in the public forum which really should have been a private issue. Yes, a brief opening self comment from a song poster is an opportunity for the song uploader to request constructive feedback, that is a pretty good idea. Of course, it doesn't prevent some goon from launching an attack and non subs don't have the right to delete, but it reflects badly upon the commentator if they abuse that position. Choices it seems is the way to go, although I do sympathize with Zed to a point that sometimes adding feature after feature takes away from the core functionality and unless it's layed out clearly leaves a bunch of redundant buttons or links.
GeneHilbert	Date: June 7, 2008 @ 10:14 AM I don't think we're losing users as a direct response to page control/comments issues. I personally have music posted on sites all over the net. And I rarely ever visit those sites. The reason, personal preference, some sites appeal to me some don't. And Dmusic wasn't the first and it hasn't been the only one since. I liked what I saw here and I hung around. Pretty simple really....... To me - you'll chase your tail the rest of your life trying to figure out what everybody wants and or likes. It's impossible to satisfy them all. Don't sacrifice your identity catering to everyones muse. I don't care what everyone else wants, that's there issue, needs and opinions. I have enough to handle my own issues. So.... if I comment and they don't like it..... So be it, does that mean I'll stop......? NO - I just won't continue to visit them or listen to their music. Choices is what freedom is, our right to choose. Right, wrong or indifferent. Don't lose your identity by trying to incorporate theirs.
Rodrica	Date: June 9, 2008 @ 3:14 AM Ove the last 6 yrs, the reasons I've been given for ppl leaving are (in order of most most frequently mentioned): 1. Unreasonable comments/lack of control of them. 2. Lack of/reduction of streams/downloads/stats. 3. Subscription not considered value for money, so have put their efforts into another site. It may be that they're not giving me the real reasons they've left...but I can only go on what they tell me. I would agree with you Gene about hanging on to your own identity - that's what being a musician is all about. But I'm careful to apply it only to my own music and not everyone else's. But I guess what you're saying is ppl are going to argue, whatever you do Oh well...at least we tried sort this out!
zedsalt	Date: June 9, 2008 @ 3:46 AM It might be of some value to consider, also, why people are staying. The activity that the most active members on the site are most actively engaged in is making/receiving comments. They'll be the first to tell you that it's the community that brings them back day after day, but the means by which they're most engaged with that community is through song comments. I think there's probably either an overrepresentation of folks in your (Rodrica's) #1, an underrepresentation of folks in your #2...or both...among the folks you've talked to. A DMer very close to me both personally and geographically shot right up into the tens of thousands of points within his first few weeks here (if not sooner). He receives an average of just under four times as many comments within 24 hrs. of posting than I average for songs that have been up for a couple of years, and I'm sure that part of the reason for that is how much more active he is than I in making comments. He's never mentioned the idea of becoming less active here, but he has pointed out just how much more active he has become elsewhere. I can't help but think that since the redesign, especially, we've lost relatively few people who left in a big huff compared to those who gradually, slowly lost interest. The only BAD idea that comes up in this periodic discussion is that of doing away with the song comment feature as it stands. Providing an additional alternative would have it's drawbacks, too, I'm convinced, but it wouldn't be the shoot-oneself-in-the-foot sort of tragedy that doing away with the current system would.
GeneHilbert	Date: June 9, 2008 @ 9:21 AM Rodz – Please don't think I'm picking on you. I love you, I hope you know that. :hugs: 1. Unreasonable comments/lack of control of them....... I get them occasionally, some not to damn flattering. I could delete them but I don't. The good, the bad, the ugly.... That's Life – besides I dish it out – I damn sure better be able to take it. 2. Lack of/reduction of streams/downloads/stats......... a. Be involved; I tell everyone that. I personally will rarely troll the site looking for unknown artist. However if I see you in the forums or you visit my page and I don't know you, the odds are much better I'll check you out, especially if you visit me. b. I rarely d/l anyone’s tunes – I know where you are if I want to listen to you. Plus I use this site as a sounding board – my mixes will change periodically. 3. Subscription not considered value for money, so have put their efforts into another site...... I know other sites offer musicians a similar service for free. However the sheer volume of upload space and streaming alone makes this the place to be. a. An interacting sounding board for showcasing your musical works. b. Meeting, networking, collaborating with musicians of every musical style and ability. c. The option to sell your merchandise for a nominal fee, although that needs a little tweaking presently. d. The ones I know of are a pain in the ass to navigate and/or a snoozefest. Most want a sizable fee and offer limited free services. e. Pony up some cash…… Damn freeloaders This all comes back to “give me something for nothing”. Not withstand the sites rework and being down for 3 months. That sure as Hell didn’t help. Besides where else can you find ME pissing, moaning and belaboring every damn subject imaginable? Where, Where.... LOL
zedsalt	Date: June 10, 2008 @ 3:12 AM I know you're just making a little self-deprecating joke, but it's true; that's one of the things that keeps me coming back.
Rodrica	Date: June 10, 2008 @ 5:20 AM Pick on me all you like Gene...I love it! Just one point. I don't want something for nothing. I WAS a subscriber. Now I'm not, although I'd like to be. Just can't seem to get things organized here the way I'd like them. But there lies the problem - what suits me & some other ppl doesn't suit everyone. I've put a lot of time and effort into this site and helped out when I could (as have many others) - this was my last attempt to voice my concerns. I'd rather spend my time working on music than going round in circles I'll hereby hand over the crown of Chief Moaner to you now Gene!

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