DMusic.com | for indie musicians and fans | Free MP3 music downloads - Forums: The General Forum: The little American Flags

Forums > The General Forum

The little American Flags

NotAlone	Date: February 10, 2002 @ 7:53 PM Was out today and couldn't help but notice the bad condition of the little American Flags that people have on their cars. When all of the little flags first showed up right after 9/11 I thought it was a very patriotic thing and I loved it. It was something very unusual and new to see so many flags being flown by so many people. I have never seen anything like it before in MY lifetime. Now most of the little flags are dirty, frazzled and frayed or laying about in the gutter where they landed after coming loose from someone's car. Makes me wish that flying the little flags hadn't become such a popular thing to do. Please guys, if you are flying a flag that isn't in good condition, take it down and get a new one. My recommendation is to put up one of the stick on kind inside your car. It will last a very long time inside your car window without looking bad and will show everyone that sees it that you love your country. NotAlone
mtbatol	Date: February 11, 2002 @ 1:07 AM who wanna buy an american flag off of me for 50 bucks. a dollar for each star?
Heidi	Date: February 11, 2002 @ 1:43 AM ~Heidi" id="3389">It is so tacky when someone has a "tore up" flag on their car. To me, that is doing more harm than good. ~Heidi
Junkman	Date: February 11, 2002 @ 9:57 AM I agree, if we are going to be displaying any flag that is torn up or in the gutter it should at least be the Talliban Flag!
milladrive	Date: February 11, 2002 @ 4:13 PM Most importantly, one can love their country and be wholeheartedly patriotic without displaying it on their sleeve. In no way should we consider unpatriotic those who don't adorn their cars and houses with our red, white & blue emblems. You're proposing people either replace it or take it down. My father still has the flag my grandparents hung on their door during WWII. ..and I think it's on his door. I say take it at face value and don't judge. Be happy they're there at all, and enjoy the colors (the pink, eggshell, and sky). :)" id="3408">This is silly. ..imo. How much of an industry do you suggest we maintain for an item entirely relegated to the symbol-minded? If someone's flag shows signs of wear or war, just be thankful it still "ye-et waves." There is no "harm" in anything associated w/this piece of cloth. If ya wanna put a sticker or decal in your window, that's just fine, but remember they fade from sunlight eventually, too. ..and i personally don't want my windows permanently marred by the decals. Most importantly, one can love their country and be wholeheartedly patriotic without displaying it on their sleeve. In no way should we consider unpatriotic those who don't adorn their cars and houses with our red, white & blue emblems. You're proposing people either replace it or take it down. My father still has the flag my grandparents hung on their door during WWII. ..and I think it's on his door. I say take it at face value and don't judge. Be happy they're there at all, and enjoy the colors (the pink, eggshell, and sky).
NotAlone	Date: February 11, 2002 @ 5:38 PM milladrive: thanks for taking the time to post your comment. These little flags that I mentioned were purchased and put on peoples cars to demonstrate their patriotism and respect for our flag, the 'living symbol' of our country. Now these flags are a filthy raggedy mess. Our flag has a whole set of rules of flag etiquette that goes with displaying it properly. Displaying it in bad condition is not acceptable. These rules are by no means law but this is OUR flag. I doubt that the people flying these little flags are all that aware of the disrespect they are showing the flag. I think they are just being lazy. Hey if they want to show contempt and disrespect for the flag they have every right. In fact it is not against the law to burn the flag. I consider myself a patriot and I didn't put up one of those little flags anywhere on my car. Patriotism is all about the walk you walk, not the talk you talk. I'm a 100% disabled combat veteran so I have walked the walk. The flag as the 'living symbol' of our country means a lot to someone who has paid for liberty with their own blood. But hey, I can see that not wanting to see our flag treated with disrespect would seem a silly thing to some. NotAlone
milladrive	Date: February 11, 2002 @ 7:15 PM Heya, NotAlone. I can definitely understand where you're comin' from now that i'm aware that you're a veteran. I know it means a lot to ya. I appreciate the bloodshed. Thank you. My point was simply that we shouldn't take issue w/the flag. Worry too much about your own flag and someone else will raise theirs while we're not lookin'. What I find silly is symbolism; payin' a bit too much attention to sump'm that probably isn't all that important on the grand scale. I too enjoyed the feeling I got when I went outside and first saw all the flags flyin' from every property. I thought it was great. I still do. However, while my heart can be filled w/love and pride, my head still knows it's just an emblem, and that one doesn't need to be God-fearing American to be a good human being. I don't put all that much emphasis on nationalism. Imagine there's no countries; it isn't hard to do. Lots of things have rules of etiquette attached to them. This doesn't mean they're not pretentious and unimportant. Do you think it matter which side the fork goes on so long as you have a fork? For many years, men and women were discouraged from making acquaintance in any other way than 3rd-person introductions. Silly. Displayin' the flag in less than new condition may seem disrespectful to you, but to me, the fact their flyin' the flag at all is a sure sign of respect. Their lives probably can't revolve around its condition and most likely they're quite satisfied knowing they're showin' their support. I'm okay with it, as I think we all should be. Just curious: Are you for or against the right to treat the flag in any way we desire?
NotAlone	Date: February 11, 2002 @ 9:39 PM milla: This is going round and round in circles. Since you don't consider the flag to be anything special then you don't need to do anything or even think about the ragged and dirty little flags that many people are flying on their cars. Obviously the information in my original post should not have concerned you in the least. I will try to type this slowly so maybe you can get it. The American Flag is the symbol of our country but more than that, it is the symbol of our * freedom and liberty *. It is not the cloth, not the colored dye that makes this such an important symbol milla. It is the Ideas that the flag symbolizes. The respect that I show the flag is my way of showing my respect for the ideas our flag represents. Also I show respect for the flag in memory of the people who have paid a very very high price for our freedom and liberty. Get it? Please try and get it, it is not that hard to comprehend? Again typing very slowly. Freedom and liberty are worth fighting for, worth dying for. The Stars and Stripes of Old Glory symbolize these ideas. If you can't see that these things deserve our respect then you are missing something very important in your life and I feel sorry for you! milla wrote: Just curious: Are you for or against the right to treat the flag in any way we desire? Gosh golly gee milla, it's pretty hard to figure out where you are trying to lead us with this one. My answer to this is. You can treat the flag in any way you see fit milladrive. However if you do something nasty to it in my presents, I will violate your rights and I will sure as God made little green apples put big knots on your head! NotAlone
milladrive	Date: February 11, 2002 @ 10:46 PM "The respect that I show the flag is my way of showing my respect for the ideas our flag represents." Is it also your way of disrespecting those whose ideals differ from yours?? I don't think I was personally insulting in my first posts. I may have a few radical thoughts on things, but you've now taken it upon yourself to make an enemy, tuff guy. Mission accomplished. "Also I show respect for the flag in memory of the people who have paid a very very high price for our freedom and liberty." I don't need a flag for that. Get it? It's not that hard to comprehend. "Again typing very slowly." Again, fuck you. "The Stars and Stripes of Old Glory symbolize these ideas. If you can't see that these things deserve our respect then you are missing something very important in your life and I feel sorry for you!" Ya know, I often hear the same thing about various things. I am missing sooo much in my life. Please pity me. "You can treat the flag in any way you see fit milladrive." You're right, I can. ..and I'd be willing to fight for your right to do the same. "However if you do something nasty to it in my presents, I will violate your rights and I will sure as God made little green apples put big knots on your head!" This would be an interesting scene. You have a very interesting way of handling those you disagree with. Right after you'd come out of intensive care, you'd be put away w/all the other violent criminals. Apparently, you don't value your freedom as much as I thought." id="3431">"I will try to type this slowly so maybe you can get it." Fuck you. "The respect that I show the flag is my way of showing my respect for the ideas our flag represents." Is it also your way of disrespecting those whose ideals differ from yours?? I don't think I was personally insulting in my first posts. I may have a few radical thoughts on things, but you've now taken it upon yourself to make an enemy, tuff guy. Mission accomplished. "Also I show respect for the flag in memory of the people who have paid a very very high price for our freedom and liberty." I don't need a flag for that. Get it? It's not that hard to comprehend. "Again typing very slowly." Again, fuck you. "The Stars and Stripes of Old Glory symbolize these ideas. If you can't see that these things deserve our respect then you are missing something very important in your life and I feel sorry for you!" Ya know, I often hear the same thing about various things. I am missing sooo much in my life. Please pity me. "You can treat the flag in any way you see fit milladrive." You're right, I can. ..and I'd be willing to fight for your right to do the same. "However if you do something nasty to it in my presents, I will violate your rights and I will sure as God made little green apples put big knots on your head!" This would be an interesting scene. You have a very interesting way of handling those you disagree with. Right after you'd come out of intensive care, you'd be put away w/all the other violent criminals. Apparently, you don't value your freedom as much as I thought.
NotAlone	Date: February 12, 2002 @ 12:07 AM Milla you ask me a very leading question about how I felt about flag desecration. Wow, then you get pissed when I answer you exactly the way you knew I would answer that question. Milladrive I helped zip almost a hundred friends up in body bags. They had flags on their caskets during their funerals. Do you really think I would let someone do something nasty to a flag while I still have breath in my body? It was not my intention to make you into my enemy but hey if that's the way you want it then I can live with it. NotAlone" id="3432">milladrive: Get pissed off pretty easily don't you? Chill out milladrive life is to short to get so pissed over a forum post from a stranger that you will never meet. I just wonder how you expected me to react. Milladrive you were talking to a 100% disabled for life veteran. You come alone, you thrash the meaning and symbolism of the American flag, you tell me that flag etiquette is no more important than the etiquette that is used for setting knives and forks on a table. You tell me in effect that you don't care about your country. Quote from you milla: "I don't put all that much emphasis on nationalism. Imagine there's no countries; it isn't hard to do." This was John's thoughts of an imaginary world, had nothing to do with real life milla, had more to do with what John was smokin'. You hit me with all of this, then you are the one who gets all pissed at me when I react negatively. Milla you ask me a very leading question about how I felt about flag desecration. Wow, then you get pissed when I answer you exactly the way you knew I would answer that question. Milladrive I helped zip almost a hundred friends up in body bags. They had flags on their caskets during their funerals. Do you really think I would let someone do something nasty to a flag while I still have breath in my body? It was not my intention to make you into my enemy but hey if that's the way you want it then I can live with it. NotAlone
Fozzie	Date: February 12, 2002 @ 12:24 AM the thing is NotAlone, life is too short to waste your time on such trivial things as dirt on a flag." id="3434">in millas first post he said pretty much exactly what i was gonna post a few days ago but I decided not to. NotAlone wrote: "Chill out milladrive life is to short to get so pissed over a forum post from a stranger that you will never meet." the thing is NotAlone, life is too short to waste your time on such trivial things as dirt on a flag.
mtbatol	Date: February 12, 2002 @ 12:46 AM hmmmm... anyone wanna help me burn a confederate flag??
milladrive	Date: February 12, 2002 @ 1:33 AM As for John, you may say he was just a dreamer, but he's not the only one. Whether he was doin' smoke, shrooms, or shit, the sentiments are still valid. Yes, it's utopianism, but hypothetically speaking, if all the people in the world could speak w/one language, and forget their pride, territorial nature, and fervent desire to belong to various groups, we'd be a much more peaceful race. Admit it. Chanting, "USA! USA! USA! USA!" doesn't necessarily command too much worldwide support, even among our allies. It just serves to show our blind arrogance. I love bein' an American (and don't you doubt it), but I'm certainly not above giving it all up for a Utopian realization. Of course, it'll never happen, but I can dream, can't I? :)" id="3437">Dear NotAlone, I'm not now nor was I before as pissed off as you may think. I have yet to use an exclamation point or begin calling names. I have also yet to begin typing slowly. How did I expect you to react? Well, in a civil tongue without violent threats would've been satisfactory. Honestly, I don't wanna be an enemy of someone who appreciates so much music, but it was not I who turned the tone. Part of my enjoyment of these forums is in the debates that sometimes pop up. I do not usually make the distinction between average posters and disabled veterans, and I'll be damned if I'll alter my words to do so. That's not how I exchange honest ideas. Unlike yourself, I am often alone w/a lotta the things I spew. The parallel w/the forks was simply to point out that if we pay too much attention to the tableware, we may not enjoy the meal. I stand firm by that statement, and I continue to assert that, like you've already said, it's in the talk and the walk, not the chalk. I am still happy that people are flyin' their flags (in any condition) and have never seen such a universal show of support in my life. You may think the flag of my country means little to me, but don't forget it's my flag as much as it is yours. I don't think I have fewer rights for not serving in the military. I love the flag, but I simply don't feel it necessary to revere and protect every single reproduction of it that rolls off some Taiwanese assembly line and sold for $2.99. Like I've said, my old man has an old cherished flag that his parents gave him. Both my cars have flags in and on them as does my house. Don't you dare tell me that I don't care about my country. Those are your words, not mine. "Do you really think I would let someone do something nasty to a flag while I still have breath in my body?" Yes. Yes, I do. As an American, I would fully expect you to fight for another citizen's right to do anything they damn well wish to anything they happen to own. Now, if they don't own the flag, that's a different story called vandalism. But our 1st Amendment right to free expression enables us to use red, white & blue toilet paper if we so desire. ...without recrimination. ...and that includes being protected from head knots inflicted by angry patriots. I only asked that question to see whether or not you, as a patriotic American, would defend our right to be crude. I genuinely wanted to know, and did not intend for the question to be leading. You could've just as easily come back with sump'm like, "Well, I don't particularly care for flag desecration and think it's a deplorable act, but I strongly feel that if we infringe on certain rights of expression, where would it end?" You didn't, tho. You rather became condescending and threatening. I should've remained pleasant? As for John, you may say he was just a dreamer, but he's not the only one. Whether he was doin' smoke, shrooms, or shit, the sentiments are still valid. Yes, it's utopianism, but hypothetically speaking, if all the people in the world could speak w/one language, and forget their pride, territorial nature, and fervent desire to belong to various groups, we'd be a much more peaceful race. Admit it. Chanting, "USA! USA! USA! USA!" doesn't necessarily command too much worldwide support, even among our allies. It just serves to show our blind arrogance. I love bein' an American (and don't you doubt it), but I'm certainly not above giving it all up for a Utopian realization. Of course, it'll never happen, but I can dream, can't I?
NotAlone	Date: February 12, 2002 @ 3:07 PM milladrive: I'm happy that we both love music. This at least gives us some common ground. I have two versions of 'Imagine'. Yes you can dream or...you may dream if you can. I dream and imagine along with John once in a while myself. Guess what? We will never be able to walk in each others shoes in regards to the flag discussion we have been involved in. We are just too far apart in where each of us are coming from. As far as I am concerned this is okay we probably have quite a few subjects that we would, could agree on. Looking forward to talking with you about subjects that we can agree on. About the flag desecration we talked about. I do not agree with the decision the Supreme Court came up with in regards to flag burning. To me the act of flag burning is a physical act. I don't consider this an appropriate act of expressing free speech. If this is an appropriate act of expressing free speech then why can't I express myself with a physical act to keep the flag safe? Where DO you draw the line? I know that if I acted to stop an incident of flag desecration my action would be against Federal law. For me it would be against moral law not to try to stop an act of flag desecration. I feel very strongly about this issue. I would accept the consequences of my act as just another payment on freedom. NotAlone
milladrive	Date: February 12, 2002 @ 4:43 PM "I would accept the consequences of my act as just another payment on freedom." What would you have accomplished? You'd have succeeded in stopping one person from treating one flag in what you see as a poor manner. Lotsa flags out there, bro. While your life is sadly wasting away in some cell block w/a husband named Bubba, that same individual has recovered from his or her injuries and has bought more flags to destroy. Do you realize how many flags could be destroyed before you'd be able to get back out and stop them again? Be serious. I'm sure your life certainly isn't worth the waste. I know you agree it's a graphic. Yes, a graphic that represents many things we hold near and dear, gives us a feeling of pride knowing all that "it" has been through, and helps us recall that all gave some, and some gave all. It's a beautiful graphic. ...but it's a graphic. The destruction of 1 is relatively meaningless when we know that its particular destruction cannot kill the meaning nor the spirit. I think my country is so strong, it can survive the destruction of one of its emblematic replicas (...again, most likely made in the South Pacific.), and I'm glad that my government is secure enough in itself to agree." id="3460">Thanx for your thoughtful response. I too look forward to discussing things in agreement w/you. I'm sure music is not the only common ground we have either. This time around, tho, we disagree. Okay. I can disagree w/someone, even passionately, and still maintain a amiable discourse. Just ask Simon. Altho I disagree, I can readily accept your dissent w/the Supreme Court's decision. You have every right to feel however you do, and you have a right to your opinions. The 1st Amendment does not guarantee only free speech. The 1st Amendment also guarantees us freedom of expression. This is not the expression of free speech; it is freedom to express oneself. ...and this includes the physical world. If someone wants to create a controversial sculpture, it's protected too. Or a mural. ...Or a painting. ..or a movie. ......or a song. No one can tell the person doin' the expressing in the U.S. of A. how they can express, physical or otherwise. The 1st Amendment covers actions as well as words. "...then why can't I express myself with a physical act to keep the flag safe? Where DO you draw the line?" Where do I draw the line? For me, this is a no-brainer. Physical acts of violence to others. In our scenario, I may be hurting my flag, but you're hurting me. Biiiiiig difference. You cannot express yourself on someone else's head, despite any feelings of anger, hatred, or passion you may have, unless it's in self-defense. The human race feels that when you do this, you are in destruction mode, not protection mode. ..and rightfully so. The pain you experience from seein' an American flag aflame is caused by your reaction to the sight of it. Your feelings would be hurt. The pain I'd be feeling would be caused by direct brutal infliction by another individual. My body would be hurt. Mercifully, the law weighs heavily in favor of physical protection over mental and emotional protection. Hitting people is a no-no. I dunno about you, but I see a humungously phat line. "I would accept the consequences of my act as just another payment on freedom." What would you have accomplished? You'd have succeeded in stopping one person from treating one flag in what you see as a poor manner. Lotsa flags out there, bro. While your life is sadly wasting away in some cell block w/a husband named Bubba, that same individual has recovered from his or her injuries and has bought more flags to destroy. Do you realize how many flags could be destroyed before you'd be able to get back out and stop them again? Be serious. I'm sure your life certainly isn't worth the waste. I know you agree it's a graphic. Yes, a graphic that represents many things we hold near and dear, gives us a feeling of pride knowing all that "it" has been through, and helps us recall that all gave some, and some gave all. It's a beautiful graphic. ...but it's a graphic. The destruction of 1 is relatively meaningless when we know that its particular destruction cannot kill the meaning nor the spirit. I think my country is so strong, it can survive the destruction of one of its emblematic replicas (...again, most likely made in the South Pacific.), and I'm glad that my government is secure enough in itself to agree.
Junkman	Date: February 13, 2002 @ 12:35 PM Should i leave?
milladrive	Date: February 13, 2002 @ 2:06 PM hehehe
NotAlone	Date: February 13, 2002 @ 3:28 PM Sorry I didn't get to post earlier. Today was my day to volunteer at the VA hospital. I just do visiting but it seems important to folks who have no one coming to see them. The VA hospital is shared with the local air force base so folks who are currently serving are also on my visitation list. Spent some time with a 19 year old female airman. She was very homesick but she was proud of her service and I know she will do okay. Spoke with a veteran who was 102. He fought in the trenched during WW1. Very interesting man! I ask a few of the people I visited with today about what the flag means to them. I took a few of their thoughts to use in this post. Nuff of this.....on with the little flag discussion. milladrive: We have different backgrounds and very different life experience. We will never be able to walk a mile in each others shoes on this issue. Not in this lifetime anyway! We have very firmly established that we each have different ways of thinking when it comes to what the flag represents to each of us and we have very different thoughts about dealing with the flag itself. We can talk about this forever but we will probably not get any closer together in our thinking about this subject. Is the flag just a graphic? Not to me it isn't! For me, each and every flag is a symbol of all the things I most love and cherish. The flag is a symbol of our national unity. It stands for the best that is in all of us. The flag stands for loyalty, character, and faith in democracy. It represents to me the undying devotion I feel for my country. In my heart and mind an attack on the symbol which I hold as sacred is a direct attack on me. If someone wants to desecrate the symbol of liberty and freedom that I have shed my life's blood defending then they better be ready to face me. They had better be able to give me good reason why they are disrespecting and desecrating the symbol which represents to me the sacrifice of so many lives of our fellow citizens. The flag and all that it stands for should be honored, not desecrated. The only defense from a flag burner that I would consider would be ignorance. I have talked the talk, I have walked the walk and I am... NotAlone
smelv1n	Date: February 13, 2002 @ 4:49 PM hehe, it's a flag!
smelv1n	Date: February 13, 2002 @ 4:55 PM i don't care about my flag at all (the red and white one with the little maple leaf in the middle) but about 7 years ago, while I was in Philadelphia, we went to a Phillies game, and you know how they usually have the canadian and american flags flying on the top of the stadiums cause both countries have players and teams and junk, well the canadian flag was the worst flag i've ever seen in my life, it was totally disfigured and the maple leaf was shapped like a pinecone. it was stretched out and BLAH, yea...it was pretty crappy..yea...hehehe it was just pretty disrespectful how crappy it was..that's about it. meh.
weaponzero	Date: February 13, 2002 @ 5:34 PM bahahahhahahahaha" id="3493">"I will try to type this slowly so maybe you can get it." bahahahhahahahaha
pressf8	Date: February 24, 2002 @ 1:43 AM http://adbusters.org/campaigns/flag/photos/1.jpg" id="3744">There's a reason I don't have a flag on my car. 1-its brand new, and would just look tacky in my opinion... 2-I wasn't patriotic enough to put one on my car last august, why should I be now? I think any patriotism that comes out of tragedy is a false patriotism, and I refuse to be a part of some pop-culture trend that requires one to be adorned with flags to prove they're patriotic. That's ridiculous. I put it in the same category as people wearing GAP khakis and buying Britney Spears CDs. Sorry, I make a point not to follow fasion trends. Unoriginality is so banal. Don't get me wrong--I like the US and all and feel I'm very lucky to be here--but I have no delusions about the necessity of a patriotic facade. What does everyone think of this flag? http://adbusters.org/campaigns/flag/photos/1.jpg
ebjcoat	Date: February 24, 2002 @ 8:05 PM I agree w/ Heidi, & why is it that people have to wait untill something terrible happens to be patriotic.
ebjcoat	Date: February 24, 2002 @ 8:06 PM @ my local drug store they sell little american flags (made in china) (heh.. I thought it was funny)
silverwolf121	Date: February 25, 2002 @ 9:48 PM mud.Looks like BIN asschunk may have won when it comes to our flag and our being patriotic.Oh and EBJCOAT: yea the flags in my store are made in chana and japan,go figure!!:(" id="3815">Well on the way down the road someones lil flag must a fell of and it had been ran over and in the mud.Looks like BIN asschunk may have won when it comes to our flag and our being patriotic.Oh and EBJCOAT: yea the flags in my store are made in chana and japan,go figure!!

Post A Reply
From:	guest	(Icons - Linking)
Post: