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Metal origins?

efrench9	Date: November 19, 2005 @ 12:31 PM Priest, Sabbath, Zeppelin,Deep Purple, etc... Who do you think originated the metal shred? The 'chunk' the 'meat' the 'grind'?
GreatGooglyM...	Date: November 19, 2005 @ 12:42 PM Blues.
Alecs	Date: November 19, 2005 @ 1:07 PM If you think about it blues and metal are usually closely related. The both use pentatonic often and they both tend to have simple chord progressions. I mean look at Mick Mars from Motley Crue. Before he was in the band he was playin blues clubs. So, yes, I agree w/ strat.
efrench9	Date: November 19, 2005 @ 5:24 PM Ya but Howlin' Wolf never hit beefy riffs with distortion and feedback , what 'BAND' do you think was the original?
GreatGooglyM...	Date: November 20, 2005 @ 10:37 AM Motörhead, Sabbath and Iron Maiden.
Bhairava	Date: November 20, 2005 @ 11:43 AM I think you're right its probably blues. Just a side thought I've been wondering for a while. Where do you think Shred came from? Cause I look at jazz and see many similarities in the way its learnt however with the emphasise in different areas. Then again it looks more like it came from guitar virtuoso's which were more in heavy metal and prog any ideas?
Alecs	Date: November 20, 2005 @ 12:03 PM shred came from classical, like Paganini and such
mdearing	Date: November 20, 2005 @ 12:14 PM I would say that Richie Blackmoore was one of the shred pioneers. Look at his solos on Highway Star and Burn. He had a lot of classical influence in his playing. Frank Marino. Alan Holdsworth could be some of the other shred pioneers. Al DiMeola, Uli Roth, Michael Schenker, Gary Moore. For metal I would say don't forget about Cream and Hendrix. Especially Hendrix. He really started it all.
Bhairava	Date: November 20, 2005 @ 12:34 PM I was thinking about classical like you said DhoomsPic but I'd probably keep that more to neoclassical as kind of a style of shred I don't think it started it but it kind of developed when people with more of a classically trained ear got into shred or just generally playing lead work.
GreatGooglyM...	Date: November 20, 2005 @ 1:06 PM Shred became mostly from jazz. Django Reinhardt was one of the first shredders.
tooles	Date: November 21, 2005 @ 3:22 AM Well, yes, metal has its roots in blues, but so does country; the rural/delta blues tradition goes back a looong way. This makes me sound totally lame, but I'm taking an introduction to popular music course right now, and we just went over metal and hard rock a coupla weeks ago, so...if I remember correctly, the most direct predecessors to metal were psychedelic rock (Cream, Hendrix) and glam rock (David Bowie, Velvet Underground). Sabbath and Zeppelin (according to my textbook) are the best mainstream examples of early heavy metal, and Aerosmith, Alice Cooper, and AC/DC were obviously heavily influenced by both bands--notice the prevalence of high tenor vocals, bass doubling on the guitar riffs, and a lot (a lot a lot) of cymbals and hihats in these later bands, all typifiable characteristics of early Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. Now, considering that both Clapton and Page claim their biggest influence was Robert Johnson, you could say that metal comes right out of delta blues, but so many production and performance esthetics are completely different that the comparison is pretty tenuous. Think about Cream's "Crossroads" vs. Robert Johnson's "Cross Road Blues" -- same song, but one is a super mellow, one-guitar/one-vocal performance, and the other is a high-energy, beat-driven, amplified, and highly distorted rock song featuring a three piece guitarist/bassist/drummer band. Obviously the mood of the song and Johnson's lyrics fit in the metal genre, so there is a link between the two styles, but metal had to have the acid rock sounds of the Stones, Hendrix, the Beatles, and all those other drugged-up hippies to acheive the energy and performance appeal that the genre is known for.
EvilPicnic	Date: November 21, 2005 @ 4:16 AM ^^I agree; metal is most definately mid 60's psychedelic rock fused to blues riffs. Just listen to Fleetwood Mac's Green Manalishi, and if that isn't proto-metal I don't know what is. There's obviously a lot more to it, and you can't point the finger at one band because genres have no lines between them (except in our heads) and everything flows into everything else. To get any more specific would be missing the point. As for shred, it's just the natural progression of guitarists having to speed up due to peer pressure. Back in the 60's Clapton was 'slowhand', and we go on from there. And neo-classicism in rock is only slightly more interesting than neo-classicism in 'serious' music. And I don't agree with shred coming from jazz either - other than speed there's not much which links Django's style of playing with Malmsteen or Becker's. That's all opinion, btw, all IMO.
GreatGooglyM...	Date: November 21, 2005 @ 2:18 PM Hmm... Malmsteen and Becker aren't the only shredders. I consider shred more as a style than a genre, which means that it can apper in rock, metal, jazz, blues and so on. Now, if you think the very first ones to play fast and complicated, they were jazz and flamenco guitarists. Allan Holdsworth, Frank Gambale, Al Di Meola... Those are one of the fastest guitarists alive and they all play jazz (Al Di playes flamecno too! ) About the natural progression... Isn't it kinda funny that the guitarists took a huge step forward with technique during the 80's? Compare that to 70's and the diffence is huge. Then again, the techniques haven't developed that much from then. Most of "older" shredders are still playing with techniques that they learned in the 80's. There had been progression in the 90's and 00's, but not nearly as big as in the 80's. Excluding Fareri, Cooley... of course!
TonyV	Date: November 21, 2005 @ 2:19 PM Ultimately metals and all other elements are a result of carbon...
tooles	Date: November 21, 2005 @ 5:27 PM Interesting point about the 80s stratwizard...not really sure why that is. My only solution would be that, especially in the sixties, there hadn't been so much focus on the guitar 'solo' in popular music until bands like Zepp started popularizing 12 minute guitar solos--this would have 'raised the bar' for future guitarists I guess. It still doesn't explain the 90's/00's drop-off, but I'm sure that's at least a part of it. I actually do like your jazz theory--there are a lot of fast-finger jazz and classical arrangements.
imemine	Date: November 21, 2005 @ 5:36 PM Process Metallurgy is one of the oldest applied sciences. Its history can be traced back to 6000 BC. Admittedly, its form at that time was rudimentary, but, to gain a perspective in Process Metallurgy, it is worthwhile to spend a little time studying the initiation of mankind's association with metals. Currently there are 86 known metals. Before the 19th century only 24 of these metals had been discovered and, of these 24 metals, 12 were discovered in the 18th century. Therefore, from the discovery of the first metals - gold and copper until the end of the 17th century, some 7700 years, only 12 metals were known. Four of these metals, arsenic, antimony , zinc and bismuth , were discovered in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, while platinum was discovered in the 16th century. The other seven metals, known as the Metals of Antiquity, were the metals upon which civilisation was based. These seven metals were: (1) Gold (ca) 6000BC (2) Copper,(ca) 4200BC (3) Silver,(ca) 4000BC (4) Lead, (ca) 3500BC (5) Tin, (ca) 1750BC (6) Iron,smelted, (ca) 1500BC (7) Mercury, (ca) 750BC These metals were known to the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Greeks and the Romans. Of the seven metals, five can be found in their native states, e.g., gold, silver, copper, iron (from meteors) and mercury. However, the occurrence of these metals was not abundant and the first two metals to be used widely were gold and copper. And, of course, the history of metals is closely linked to that of coins and gemstones And there yau have it! Any questions?
Alecs	Date: November 21, 2005 @ 7:18 PM Thank's Ime, I can now proceed to doing as does your avatar.
K3VIN	Date: November 21, 2005 @ 7:20 PM i like metal
TonyV	Date: November 22, 2005 @ 8:32 AM im3min3 is a damn genius! You have just kindled a fire inside me hot enough to smelt iron!
imemine	Date: November 22, 2005 @ 10:01 AM As you were then! Smelt away!
zedsalt	Date: November 22, 2005 @ 11:34 AM smelt funny
zedsalt	Date: November 23, 2005 @ 11:36 AM God bless and keep Link Wray.
efrench9	Date: November 24, 2005 @ 2:55 AM Well we have no absolute winner as of yet but I think since the Humbucker pickup was a key player in the shred 'sound' we can say it was post 1957 at least. I would go out on a limb and say that it was a Strat or Les Paul model that was being played when the sound arrived but by Whom!? Richie Blackmoore was certainly a good suggestion. Would Chuck Berry be allowed in? His sound was more Twang than Shred I guess. Or should we give credit to a particular amplifier for the innovation?
efrench9	Date: November 24, 2005 @ 2:58 AM Well we have no absolute winner as of yet but I think since the Humbucker pickup was a key player in the shred 'sound' we can say it was post 1957 at least. I would go out on a limb and say that it was a Strat or Les Paul model that was being played when the sound arrived but by Whom!? Richie Blackmoore was certainly a good suggestion. Would Chuck Berry be allowed in? His sound was more Twang than Shred I guess. Or should we give credit to a particular amplifier for the innovation?
efrench9	Date: November 24, 2005 @ 2:59 AM sorry double posts are killing me
GreatGooglyM...	Date: November 24, 2005 @ 10:07 AM When shred became more popular in the 80's, the ordinary Strats just weren't enough for shredders. The "souped up" Strats sporting Floyd's and H-S-S pickup configurations came into scene. Here's a good example: http://www.jemsite.com/jem/model/vai_misc.htm
GreatGooglyM...	Date: November 24, 2005 @ 10:09 AM some more... http://www.jemsite.com/jem/model/perfomance.htm
celtaidd	Date: November 24, 2005 @ 6:55 PM bronze age I think

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