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Theory?

ronnie71	Date: February 7, 2004 @ 4:44 AM Does anyone know how i can apply some of the new scales ive learned? Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor, and how the hell do i use these damn modes?
musicpicks	Date: February 7, 2004 @ 5:38 AM Interesting post. I think it helps to have a chord progression intact when using scales. Getting the modes down too help. Here are some sites which may help: http://www.thecipher.com/chord-progressions-minor.html http://www.torvund.net/guitar/Theory/27-Melodic_minor.asp http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~desmith/guitar/scales/playing2.htm http://www.torvund.net/guitar/progressions/index.asp http://guitarsecrets.com/mod2.htm
thecount	Date: February 7, 2004 @ 10:36 AM whats a scale
leflaw	Date: February 7, 2004 @ 2:14 PM OK. can someone give a concise statement of why modes are important, and how they apply to playing guitar. Serious.
musicpicks	Date: February 7, 2004 @ 7:34 PM My short explanation: modes are important to musicians who play on positional instruments to utilize all of that instrument, guitar is a perfect example of this. Visual explanation: Picture each string on your guitar as if it were a keyboard turned sideways. note(E is open string, not fret) same with A on the second lowest pitched string lowest string : E F Gb G Ab A Bb B C Db D Eb E second lowest : - - -- - -- A Bb B C... There is overlap within these strings, the lowest string contains the same A Bb B and C... as the second string but in a different position on the guitar fretboard. So collectively, the same scale can be played all over the guitar through the same set of notes in different positions. Learning the modes help you apply the right notes in the right position. Theory explanation: Just because it is mechanically useful to use the above explanation to apply modes, it doesn't explain why. This again, I refer one to chord progressions. These help determine which notes are focused on and further help to define a set of notes one is to use as a scale. Expanded explanation: Look into intervals on the internet. An interval is the distance between 2 notes. Some intervals are longer than others. When you look at modes you will see the relationship of these intervals within each mode help to define character of that mode alone. My personal view: Scales are infinite, they don't have to repeat. Modes are shorter, and they represent the rotation of a set of common notes. The reason for this is that our ears only recognize certain qualities each sound gives and ignore the rest. So, instead of reinforcing theory which we may not recognize, the use of modes help to bring the gist of a melody to light. I have further info posted at "Musical Elements" at http://www.chessmusic.com/chessmusic.htm Feel free to send me feedback at http://mb.mcw.us
victorsskull	Date: February 7, 2004 @ 10:13 PM shit dont ask me I just play by ear
leflaw	Date: February 8, 2004 @ 8:29 AM "My personal view: Scales are infinite, they don't have to repeat. Modes are shorter, and they represent the rotation of a set of common notes. The reason for this is that our ears only recognize certain qualities each sound gives and ignore the rest. So, instead of reinforcing theory which we may not recognize, the use of modes help to bring the gist of a melody to light." Excellent!
CrescentShadow	Date: February 8, 2004 @ 9:02 AM scales are important because without scales you cant write anything that has more than 1 guitar and make it sound good basically.. a smple way to use those scales you just learned.. make a chord progression using like the I,IV,V... then use the scale to write a lead for it. Its a fairly simple concept. its important to know that scales arent just in the "box" that these websites have diagrams of. The notes of the scale stretch out all over the fretboard. It helps a lot if you know the notes on the fretboard, or the pattern of your scale. like the minor scale steps are whole-half-whole-whole-half-whole-whole ..then you can use that along the fretboard and know all the notes in the minor scale. maybe any of that didnt make sense. maybe it did
woodhead	Date: February 8, 2004 @ 1:49 PM Also don't forget that with modes you can also add different flavors of music. One mode will have an Egyptian sound to it while another will have an east Indian sound to it and so forth and so forth. For a great site on theory from the newbie learning to play to the seasoned player, www.wholenote.com is great, I even found a mode for gypsy style playing and working on incorporating into my sound
clematisbrot...	Date: February 8, 2004 @ 3:13 PM ..........and don't forget about whole tone scales. There are only two of them, and they make you sound inscrutable.
ronnie71	Date: February 9, 2004 @ 2:43 AM my mother calls them church modes but she cant explain them to me... and she is music teacher so i can use modes in a I,IV,V context Crescent Shadow. woodhead i got one those Grimoires for scales and modes its got all of them seems like.. i just trying to figure out what can they be used for. For instance what type of music would go well with a Phrygian or Mixolydian. Does anybody know about Super Pentonics i heard of them need to find some tab on them? See just recently i have had to relearn all of my scales instead of a conventional pattern im learning the sweeping patters(three notes per string) so everything can be more systemaic.. hopefully to improve my speed and fluency on the guitar. Also been using a metronome. If you dont use one start. Its helped me so much .. metronomeonline.com
kredd	Date: February 9, 2004 @ 11:29 AM my favorite scales are the wide major and wide minor. not only do they present another way of play major/minor scales they give you a good finger stretching excercise and good for developing speed. my favorite mode is phrygian. its always sounded pretty to me when played over a minor key..its brings out a unique flavor like woodhead was talking about. ronnie, as to asking what type of music goes well with phrygian or mixolydian....to me you kinda have it backwards IMHO, modes are applied to the song...you wouldn't nessacerily build a song around a mode. i like to use pieces and parts of different modes when writing a solo or putting a harmony part together. each mode is going to sound different when played over a certain chord or chord progression. modes give you a good 'rotation'(as was mentioned earlier) and help me move around the fretboard instead of just staying in one position. they also help me stay in key and to know what notes i should and shouldn't use when trying to write a harmony part but i would play the phrygian scale just for the sake of playin the scale even though i may play in that position or use some of the notes. does that make any sense at all????
woodhead	Date: February 9, 2004 @ 8:25 PM you wouldn't nessacerily build a song around a mode. i like to use pieces and parts of different modes when writing a solo or putting a harmony part together You hit the nail right on the head Kelly. I couldnt have said it better
ronnie71	Date: February 10, 2004 @ 11:59 PM Cool I believe i know what your talking about some things a person does and doesnt know what ones doing like me.. thanks guys for all your help
OneUnderAttack	Date: February 12, 2004 @ 12:44 AM A great book to learn from is the Tonal Harmony Textbook, it's about $75 but you can learn a lot from it. it is for AP Music Theory classes and college level Music Theory Courses. You can get it at any university that has The Music Theory course. oh by the way there are three types of minor scales The Natural, Harmonic and Melodic. Natural is just a major scale... Except you lower the 3rd, 6th, and 7th notes by a half step, the harmonic is only lowering the 3rd, and 6th notes by a half step, and last but not least the melodic going up only lowers the 3rd by a half step, however on the way down lowers the 7th, 6th, and 3rd by a half step. So just use them as regular scales. For example the Parrallel Natural minor of C Major is c minor so it goes up C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb,C which is a C Major scale with the key signiature of Eb. The Parrallel Melodic of C Major however is C,D,Eb,F,G,A,B,C,Bb,Ab,G,F,Eb,D,C. and the harmonic is C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,B,C. That is pretty much it, but it is important because Music Theory was built over years I think in Greece and Rome based on what sounds good and Basic Music Theory was standardized by Bach and several composers of that Era. So by knowing Music Theory you will naturally sound better because you would know how to create Chords and Cadential Figures, Harmonic Chord Progressions, and such.
Arahilion	Date: March 6, 2004 @ 8:27 AM I was too lazy to read the posts, just my 2 cents: Maybe you should first learn the chords belonging to harmonic minor and melodic minor. In Melodic you usually only use I, IV and V step well. To these Church modes, my guitar teacher explained them to me once, if you play E7 in A-moll that means, you play the harmonic mode from e to e', e.g.: e f as a h c d e And so on with the other chords, thus you can make melodies over the chords using these modes. Hm, i hope you understood me somehow
Arahilion	Date: March 6, 2004 @ 8:28 AM Oops sorry, I called A-moll, it's the german way to call A minor
pog	Date: March 6, 2004 @ 10:47 AM the easiest way that I've found to explain modal influences..... If your modes aren't working, then basically, you're playing the wrong flavored chords. In particular, if you're a guitarist, and you're used to the sound of the major scale, and then in sequence, the natural minor scale which is the exact opposite to the major scale, then you've taught yourself the "rules" so to speak (95% of guitarists perfect the natural minor first as it sounds the purest even though it's a bit cynical compared to the major scale) from here, you can work out the harmonic minor scale. It's exactly the same as the natural minor scale, except the 7th is sharpened by 1 semitone... this creates a totally different feel and flavor, but still tends to keep it fairly rock In a melodic minor, again you use the natural minor scale, and the 6th and 7th are both sharpened by 1 semitone. Now if you want to start to learn about the feel of modes such as the phrygian mode, then I suggest you try the scale first, then find chords that work with those scales... then listen a little more intently... you'll find that certain chordal shapes such as a minor 7th only work in this position in this key with this mode.... experiment... it'll hit you like a slap hope this helps
leflaw	Date: March 6, 2004 @ 12:50 PM Heres a good idea to think about: 1. Concentrate on the third. Is it natural or minor? 2. Concentrate on the seventh. Is it natural or minor 3. then on to "icing" - 9ths, 11th's ( or sus 4's) or 13ths. Are they natural or altered ( sharp or flat) 4. Any raised 5ths? everything else is for the bass player Not exactly model, but it will get you going. ps: try to avoid playing tonic notes on the 1 of the beat. Sound like John Phillip Sousa. pps: Read Jerry Coker "Improvising Jazz", especially the appendix (memorize the first 30 progressions and thats 90% of improvising Jazz...
victorsskull	Date: March 7, 2004 @ 9:53 AM you must become one with the guitar grasshoppa
Arthen	Date: March 12, 2004 @ 4:05 AM Use your ears. CDs of your favourite music are available everywhere; listen to them and learn. The only way to truly make it part of your musical skill is to listen and make sense of how these progressions and scales are being used. Theory is important, but many in general I've seen who depend on theory or start out WITH theory for that matter develops tendencies to have a "I need to go and learn it first" mentality, rather than a IMMEDIATE "I KNOW what to do with this, I can do it my way". The latter is important not because you can show off; but because musically you are ahead of others when you can compose in your head and just feel and play it out on the whim because musically whenever you hear a song you know what to do already; the beauty of improvising. My 2 cents on this one...not an absolute formula but hell..it sure works. Wonders.
Arthen	Date: March 12, 2004 @ 4:08 AM Of course you gotta work on your technique to bring your ideas to reality...so hehehe it's never one for itself; it's a harmony of both.
leflaw	Date: March 14, 2004 @ 11:35 PM You should be able to sing what you play. (solfeggio)
pog	Date: March 14, 2004 @ 11:42 PM I'll bet you're sorry you asked now
ronnie71	Date: March 15, 2004 @ 1:44 AM do a deer a female deer ray - a drop of golden sun me - a name, I call myself fa- a long,long, way to run so- another word to rhyme with do la- ( dammit i forgot this one) ti- a drink to go with bread and that brings us back to DO
pog	Date: March 15, 2004 @ 2:30 AM La........ La........ La.....ger La..ger lager
MisledMayhem	Date: April 2, 2004 @ 1:24 AM Learn Jazz and Classical to build on your rock and roll if your a rock kinda guy. Right after I started learning jazz I got so much better because it gives you something really challanging to work on, and I'm trying to go classical and do flamenco picking, but man, that is hard to do!
ronnie71	Date: April 2, 2004 @ 5:13 AM yeah im trying to learn some classical pieces...im really not into jazz but some of it is cool.. just not muzak jazz .. yuck..
pog	Date: April 2, 2004 @ 6:06 AM I found that as I learnt more in guitar school, they started pushing the students towards being jazz players. Possible because it's the most complicated with time signatures, and chord voicings. The thing that I found was I was still impressing the grade 2 diploma students by playing the simpsons and adams family themes... a sweep pick would make them call me a bastard. The best drummer I ever jammed with failed drum school cos he couldn't play piano.. go figure
smooka	Date: April 2, 2004 @ 11:50 AM "Theory" I should learn some.
sqrlcub	Date: April 2, 2004 @ 12:37 PM Ok, quick theory lesson: Modes. Modes are the sclaes based off the individual notes of the major scale. In the natural modes (or Church modes...ie, the ones without any accidentals outside of the major key's key signature) you will have 7 different modes. We will use the Key of C for ease. below, I will say the solfege name, the modal name, the notes of the scale, and a little bit of how the scales differ from the major or minor keys that they are closest to. Do - Ionian CdefgabC no accidentals (major Key) Re - Dorian DefgabcD no accidentals (it becomes a minor key with a raised 6th scale degree. The song Scarborough Fair is in the Dorian Mode. Simon and Garfunkel Transposed it to an E dorian) Mi - Phrygian EfgabcdE (It becomes a minor key with a flat 2. It sounds more Egyptian/Flamenco to most peoples ears. If you play a scale with all the natural notes on a guitar from the low E string to the High E string, you played in the phrygian mode) Fa - Lydian FgabcdeF (This is basically a Major scale with a sharp 4. I don't know any music that uses it strictly off hand) Sol - Mixolydian GabcdefG (This is a major scale with a minor 7th scale degree) La - Aeolian AbcdefgA (This is the natural minor scale.) Ti - Locrian BcdefgaB (This scale is a "diminished scale" because the 5th scale degree is flat. The initial triad is a diminished chord. If you never play diminished chords in your music this will be very hard to fit this mode into your music. Now for the quality of the triads that the scales make. Upper Case Roman numerals are major chords, lower case roman numerals are minor chords. The diminished chords will be shown with a o after them. Ionion I ii iii IV V vi viio Dorian i ii III IV v viio I Phrygian i II III iv vo VI vii Lydian I II iii ivo V vi vii Mixolydian I ii iiio IV v vi VII Aeolian i iio III iv v VI VII Locrian io II iii iv V VI vii Now the same thing but with the C based chords Ionion C d e F G a bo Dorian d e F G a bo C Phrygian e F G a bo C d Lydian F G a bo C d e Mixolydian G a bo C d e F Aeolian a bo C d e F G Locrian bo C d e F G a It's pretty straight forward overall. It just takes a little bit of getting used to. They were called church modes because the original written music was for churchs, starting with gregorian chants. The origins of solfege were from the first six syllables (Ti was added later as a theoretical practice, little to no music was ever written in the key since it is so hard to sing diminished chords) of the Hymn to John the Baptist. Guido D'Arrezzo (a medieval monk) came up with the system and it is now in common practice. Was that too much information at once?
ronnie71	Date: April 3, 2004 @ 8:04 AM hell no... thanks!!!
soundsseeker	Date: April 3, 2004 @ 5:45 PM wow now my head hurts.. at
sqrlcub	Date: April 3, 2004 @ 9:50 PM I can explain harmonic and melodic minor. Basically if you use the Dominant chord (V or Sol) as a major chord in a minor key, the harmonic minor scale will fit over it. The melodic is a little trickier since it changes your V and VI chords depending on if you are ascending or descending. It sounds correct but in my opinion doesn't work as a very soloable scale outside of jazz or pseudo classical. The melodic minor tends to work better with interior voice leading where it is semi hidden rather than straight up in your face. Unless of course you are playing jazz.
pog	Date: April 3, 2004 @ 10:49 PM aww lookey... a baby Im a bit disappointed ya got no songs up
sqrlcub	Date: April 3, 2004 @ 11:39 PM Yeah, I can put some up but they aren't finished yet and I hear all the mistakes still. If you guys were interested, I could put up some ones with scractch vocals still. No harmony vocals, no percussion, etc. :/
pog	Date: April 3, 2004 @ 11:43 PM hmmm... well, you could put up a pre-mix or 2.. that'd be cool However, don't rush anything... I'm a firm believer of good things coming to those that wait. Please, drop by my shoutbox when ya do get a song posted and tell me about it. I'll be looking forward to it.
sqrlcub	Date: April 4, 2004 @ 1:43 AM Yeah, I can put some up but they aren't finished yet and I hear all the mistakes still. If you guys were interested, I could put up some ones with scractch vocals still. No harmony vocals, no percussion, etc. :/
sqrlcub	Date: April 4, 2004 @ 1:56 AM Yeah, I can put some up but they aren't finished yet and I hear all the mistakes still. If you guys were interested, I could put up some ones with scractch vocals still. No harmony vocals, no percussion, etc. :/
pog	Date: April 4, 2004 @ 3:01 AM looks like it keeps re-posting every time you press refresh.. Just go back to the forums and link to this "Theory" thread from there
sqrlcub	Date: April 4, 2004 @ 3:28 AM Sorry about that... not sure how to delete reposted messages.
pog	Date: April 4, 2004 @ 4:52 AM no biggie... ya live and learn
Traf	Date: April 5, 2004 @ 8:19 AM Hi, I'm a new member here and don't know if this is of help... It's ok knowing all the modes, but using them for improvising is more difficult. It's mostly down to what is known as Key Centres. When a chord progression is played and you want to solo over it, you need to find the key centre to then be able to choose the correct scale mode. If you were improvising over the two chord of say A minor and D minor (maybe a bar of each being repeated), you would normally start with the natural A minor scale and see if that works. In the case of these two chords, it would work ok. The reason why the natural A minor scale works over the chord of D minor, is because all the notes in the chord of D minor are notes that are in the natural A minor scale... If you added the chord of E minor to your chord sequence, that would be ok as well for the same reason and therefore the key centre has not changed. If however, we then replaced the chord of D minor with the chord of D major, the natural A minor scale would not work. The reason for this is that the chord of D major has a note in it that is not in the scale of A natural minor. The sharpened 5th of A (one of the notes in the natural minor scale) is not in the chord of D major. But... the 6th is... This means we have to then change the natural A minor scale to the A Dorian scale. This minor mode scale is has a 6th in it and not a sharpened 5th and would now fit over the 2 chords of A minor and D major. Hope I've not waffled on too much there. It's really all down to the chords you are trying to improvise over as to whether the modes are of use. I hope that's of some use. I have a little project going at the moment which might be of help to a few people. It's under construction, but if you want to take a look please do. The address is... http://www.thebluesworkshop.com
bastardo23	Date: April 28, 2004 @ 12:35 PM since i cannot remember what is actually covered above i thought i'd just satisfy my urge to remind myself i know this crap. first of all, Key centers. i knew my modes for about 5 years before someone explained to me that although they sound different, C major 7 was almost the same thing as D minor 7, E minor 7, F major 7#11, G dominant 7, A minor 7 and B minor 7b5. in other words these seven chords and the modes or chordscales that match them all belong to a key centre(c major). So in a chord progression that contains any of these chords you may like to test the sound of any of your modes from c major. you will find that some sound better than others, but your ear is the best way to find out what you like the sound of.(note* some of the chords of a given key centre have common chords with other keys. i.e D minor could be II in C major, III in Bb major, or 6 in F major.)
bastardo23	Date: April 28, 2004 @ 1:07 PM anyway, another important thing to look closely at is the first, third, fifth, and seventh degree of each of the modes.(the arpeggio) you'll quickly discover that certain specific chords from a key centre will be based on these notes!! i don't know how to explain it better except to repeat myself, but Eminor7 is not really that different from Cmaj7.(three of the notes are common!!)(and all the keys centre notes will be found in the chordscale!!!) *it is important to note that order of notes is what determines a good chunk of melody. if i play c major starting from F i will have f lydian, if i play c major starting from A i will have a aeolian or natural minor, etc.) there are no rules that stop experimentation, so test em all out for a given key centre to find what you need. about melodic minor, as a rule, outside of arranging, you'll get better results with melodic minor if you leave both degrees raised ascending and descending.(in school they called it the jazz melodic minor)(remember that the same waymodes in the harmonic minor an you developed modes in the major scale can be used to find modes inharmonic minor,and melodic minor.(natural minor is the same as major, just a different order.) Arthen, i appreciate your views towards freedom of expression, but to know where you are, and to be able to work efficiently and creatively, under the pressure of a gig(ie improvising) those without theory usually have a harder time keeping up. theory helps you determine, with your ear and some additional tools, what is going on(key), and what you can play with that key. can someone w/theory write and document music faster than one w/o? i highly doubt it. do you think someone w/o theory can improvise more effectively than someone with it? if you do i doubt you can prove it. gotta skip out, try to blab more soon.
bastardo23	Date: April 28, 2004 @ 1:17 PM sorry bout that "remember that the same way you developed modes in the major scale can be used to find modes in harmonic minor,and melodic minor.(natural minor is the same as major, just a different order.)"
bastardo23	Date: April 28, 2004 @ 1:32 PM oh yeah, avoid the tendency of string players which is to evade learning what notes you are actually playing. as string fools, we can finger a scale in the same way no matter which note we start on, so we generally seem to only learn the first note of a scale, but remain unaware of what is going on inside the scale. ask yourself, what is the actual difference between IIminor7 IIIminor7, and VIminor7? this will be determined by the notes between 1 3 5 and 7, the chordscale or mode. Learn to spell your chords and scales or this stuff will likely remain intelligible.
sqrlcub	Date: April 28, 2004 @ 1:57 PM Bastardo23: "can someone w/theory write and document music faster than one w/o? i highly doubt it." I think you said this backwards. (Rephrasing for clarity) Can someone with theory knowledge write and document music faster than one without theory knowledge. You said no. To me that means that someone with theory knowledge can not write music faster than one without theory knowledge. I'm guessing you did a with/without transposition and meant it the other way around.

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