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Better Production from Independent Musicians

Elu	Date: July 18, 2003 @ 12:48 PM Hello all...For those of you who are familiar with my last controversial post about Independent Musician's needing production, you will love this one. As you are aware, this site is anti RIAA. Alot of preaching goes on here about how people should stop buying major lable material. As leverage to help the public stop buying record industry products, I would like to propose again that production is the key to helping the anti-RIAA process grow. It is true that alot of independent music truely sucks. And if you want to beat me up about the truth than so be it. Those of you who are offended must be prime offenders. Think about it. If the serious independent musicians of dmusic and the smattering of other independent music sites get the hint about making their material comparable to major label material, more of the public will buy non-commercial, independent releases. There is no math to do here. Independent does not mean non-professional for those of you who are confused as to the meaning of this post. Yes there are hobby musicians on this site who just want to post their material and this is a wonderful venue for them too, but those of us who are in the professional realm of independent music should try our hardest to compete with the majors.
Svensta	Date: July 18, 2003 @ 1:27 PM The real determining factor here, that seperates 'good' from 'sucky' in your argument would be: SALES. I say this because you expressly seperate the professional from the hobbyist, and I know you yourself to be a professional. For that yardstick, the ultimate goal would be sales, plain and simple. Hey, there's no crime or shame in this. The way I see it, you need TWO main things for your music to have a shot at succeeding. Polish, and exposure. In regards to polish, you are absolutely right. I feel independents do need more polish. However, this is somewhat of an out-of-reach goal for a great many 'starving artists'. You know I personally love your work. I have to say I truly wonder at the sound of say... VictorSkull's guitar work... if he had the scrubbing, polish and production of your OWN music. I agree, but then, this only solves half the equation. Indies need exposure. My one qualifier towards siding with you is the live performance. I do not care what opera-hall you rent out, the acoustics of a live performance NEVER match up to a studio recording. Specially the larger concerts. Why then, is live music so attractive, so much so that established polished bands will release live material and see it do comparably well, against their studio stuff?" id="54664">heheheh, you couldn't resist kicking over this bucket again, eh? I do agree with you that "alot of independent music truely sucks" but then a lot of Association music sucks, and again, one's opinion of music is simply that, an opinion. And of course no single opinion means a damn thing. The real determining factor here, that seperates 'good' from 'sucky' in your argument would be: SALES. I say this because you expressly seperate the professional from the hobbyist, and I know you yourself to be a professional. For that yardstick, the ultimate goal would be sales, plain and simple. Hey, there's no crime or shame in this. The way I see it, you need TWO main things for your music to have a shot at succeeding. Polish, and exposure. In regards to polish, you are absolutely right. I feel independents do need more polish. However, this is somewhat of an out-of-reach goal for a great many 'starving artists'. You know I personally love your work. I have to say I truly wonder at the sound of say... VictorSkull's guitar work... if he had the scrubbing, polish and production of your OWN music. I agree, but then, this only solves half the equation. Indies need exposure. My one qualifier towards siding with you is the live performance. I do not care what opera-hall you rent out, the acoustics of a live performance NEVER match up to a studio recording. Specially the larger concerts. Why then, is live music so attractive, so much so that established polished bands will release live material and see it do comparably well, against their studio stuff?
blooddshedd	Date: July 18, 2003 @ 3:10 PM all I can say is.... we flip flop and serve hoes like flap jacks
Tudris	Date: July 18, 2003 @ 5:37 PM Ditto what Svensta said. As far as live music, I think it depends. It's obvious that live music at a concert are exciting because the band is right there, you're surrounded by crowds of people, jumping in the mosh pit (depending on the band and the seats you scored , and it's just a lot of fun to be there seeing your favorite band. I've never been really particular to recorded live music, but I have some. I think its popularity has to do with the fact that you won't find it on any studio CDs. As in, the band will perform differently, they'll say different things, variate the songs a bit, etc. There's also a chance they'll perform unreleased material. There may be other reasons, but like I said, I prefer studio recordings for listening. Obviously, they just sound better.
sepidman	Date: July 18, 2003 @ 5:52 PM Can I have 2 hoes with maple syrup please?? While it is true that much on the major labels suck as far as the song and content and such I believe that the point being made was about the production. You can have a crap song but give it great production and it will sound better than a great song with crap production. I am working with a few indie artist right now who want to record. Their first instinct is to go to the cheapest studio, pay $100 a song and call it good. These are people who want to get radio exposure. First thing I tell them is that the competition is not the guy doing karaokee at the local pub.....your competition is Shania friggin' Twain and Tim McGraw, and your $100 song ain't gonna cut it. If you wanna compete, get serious about your production and truly create competition. We have competed quite sucessfully against the majors, especially on the European front. And Canada has a whole poop load of indies floating all over the charts. Brian
Svensta	Date: July 18, 2003 @ 6:11 PM So, sepidman, what is your price range for a realistically 'good' production, and what would you suggest as a half-measure for those of us that lack the capital to produce an album?
victorsskull	Date: July 18, 2003 @ 10:27 PM hey I do the best I can damned it I only went to recording school for three days Im learning day by day hands on and it takes time, Im not a frickin brain or a rich boy that can go out and buy my recording time!
victorsskull	Date: July 18, 2003 @ 10:30 PM oh and svensta have you listened to some of my new stuff much better sound quality
GeneHilbert	Date: July 19, 2003 @ 1:11 AM .. and NOT FAT Ho's either. Another quality issue complaint. Professional sound quality and production is key....... regardless of style choice. Make it kick as hard as you possibly can. And Please..... guitarist buy a damn tuner - set your intonation....... and play in tune." id="54775">Make that 3 PHAT HO's with extra maple syrup & plastic sheets "PLEASE" ........ .. and NOT FAT Ho's either. Another quality issue complaint. Professional sound quality and production is key....... regardless of style choice. Make it kick as hard as you possibly can. And Please..... guitarist buy a damn tuner - set your intonation....... and play in tune.
victorsskull	Date: July 19, 2003 @ 1:32 AM I do damned it and and ummm f$ck I dont know
sinai	Date: July 19, 2003 @ 1:34 AM most of elvis's records were made on an analog four track... still some of the best shit ive ever heard
victorsskull	Date: July 19, 2003 @ 1:55 AM hell ya beotch
leflaw	Date: July 19, 2003 @ 7:24 AM 5. Watch out for low/mid range buildup upper bass + guitar + keys + drums = MUDDDDD unless you thin out overlapping low/mid frequencies. Never fails. 6. MOST DIGITAL AUDIO WORKSTATIONS SOUND BETTER WHEN YOU USE OUTBOARD PREAMPS and EQ. How do you expect your computer to sound as a Fairchild compressor. 7. Use "nearfield" monitors - keep them close and avoid room reflection. 8. Listen to the mix on many systems - car, boom box, big speakers, friend's house, etc. It should sound good on all of them. 9. "If it sounds good and measures bad", you've measured the wrong thing" " id="54800">tips 1. Compression : Compress everthing!!! a) Lead vocal b) Bass c) Kick d) snare 2. Use separate reverb sounds on vocal than from other instruments or whole track. No verb on bass (usually - exception for fretless bass.) 3. Don't confuse slap back echo with reverb - different sound and purpose. 4. Watch out reverb reverb buildup. Less is more, unless you want it be an "effect" 5. Watch out for low/mid range buildup upper bass + guitar + keys + drums = MUDDDDD unless you thin out overlapping low/mid frequencies. Never fails. 6. MOST DIGITAL AUDIO WORKSTATIONS SOUND BETTER WHEN YOU USE OUTBOARD PREAMPS and EQ. How do you expect your computer to sound as a Fairchild compressor. 7. Use "nearfield" monitors - keep them close and avoid room reflection. 8. Listen to the mix on many systems - car, boom box, big speakers, friend's house, etc. It should sound good on all of them. 9. "If it sounds good and measures bad", you've measured the wrong thing"
victorsskull	Date: July 19, 2003 @ 11:23 AM good tips gots to try the compression thingy
GeneHilbert	Date: July 19, 2003 @ 1:28 PM Be careful with compression - it will suck the life out of your recordings. Digital signals really don't require compression. Live drums, bass & guitars mic'd through an amp, & vocals are standard candidates for some compression to tighten the signal. Also when mastering 2: 3: 4: to 1 creates the effect of making the tune hotter. TV commercials are compressed to make them louder than the shows. To much and you sterilize the recording. There's a fine line.
victorsskull	Date: July 19, 2003 @ 3:22 PM dam fine lines
Etheracide	Date: July 19, 2003 @ 4:46 PM But hey...we get the emotion and feeling down for others to hear and I believe that's what's most important. If I listen to someone's music and it's very good but not the best produced works...I will still enjoy as much as I possibly can for what it is. I put more time and effort into making sure that the song is what I want it to be and that it feels the way that I want it to feel than I do in "properly" mixing it. Damned time limitations. And in the least, if I have time with work and my "real" band, we can go into a studio and properly record and produce our older songs and any newer songs. But I also enjoy our sortof "underground" feel that comes with our sound. Anyway vic...feel free to work on compression or whatever you want to make the music sound the way that you want it to. But I enjoy your stuff to the point where I'd listen to it even if it sounded as if you were playing from a tin can." id="54857">You don't have to worry toooo much about those fine lines. While they do exist, you can trust your own perception of your music and if it sounds good to you, then it sounds good. Just work on it (compression, etc...) until it sounds good to you. It's humorous to me that I'd be mentioning this because I do not like the production on Etheracide songs. Simply because there is very little aside from recording it. I have very little time to put into the production process post-recording so we write the songs and record them with the time that we do have. I try to make slight corrective adjustments but any "REAL" technician/producer would probably gasp well over a hundred times watching what I do as we record and after. But hey...we get the emotion and feeling down for others to hear and I believe that's what's most important. If I listen to someone's music and it's very good but not the best produced works...I will still enjoy as much as I possibly can for what it is. I put more time and effort into making sure that the song is what I want it to be and that it feels the way that I want it to feel than I do in "properly" mixing it. Damned time limitations. And in the least, if I have time with work and my "real" band, we can go into a studio and properly record and produce our older songs and any newer songs. But I also enjoy our sortof "underground" feel that comes with our sound. Anyway vic...feel free to work on compression or whatever you want to make the music sound the way that you want it to. But I enjoy your stuff to the point where I'd listen to it even if it sounded as if you were playing from a tin can.
victorsskull	Date: July 19, 2003 @ 11:39 PM thanx
sinai	Date: July 20, 2003 @ 6:22 AM indeed... shit produced to that very pinacle of sonic gold is still shit
Elu	Date: July 21, 2003 @ 10:35 AM These are truely wonderful tips for independent artists on this and all sites. I have to agree with all of these responses. Compression is key on vocals and instruments that have booms in volume and texture. I also believe that you can do it with a limiter and not use compression. But sometimes both cause the frequency of the signal to change if too much is used. there is a fine line. But I am especially pleased with the point Sepidman made about telling these people who show up in the studio with no money to produce 12 songs and expect that it will get on the radio. No way...no how, pick a new career. I suggest to all that ask the question to only do one or two of your best songs and spend lots of time on them. Get someone to look at the structure of the song and make sure it flows. And the truth be known that you can buy a nice hard disk recorder and if you know how to engineer and produce, you will spend far less money in the total project. In my opinion this is the key to swaying the general public that they have other alternatives. I would like to touch on Svensta's remark about live shows. I agree. I think it is especially true if the artist has a nice show. You are drawn into the ambience of the concert and the music. There is something special about seeing someone perform. But I have to say that live sound still has to be a concern. One exceptions to the rule...Sting. But my point being that if some band comes out that you are not sure of and sound like crap...what are the chances that you are gonna buy their material?

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