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Negative or Constructive Criticism on Music...

novuselysium	Date: September 28, 2004 @ 8:49 PM I saw a post made on an artist's homepage, and thought it would be a relevant topic of discussion in the forums. Leflaw's forum seems to be the only non-subscriber forum that worked for this topic and I think Leflaw himself might have an opinion, hence its placement here. I know this is kind of an off-shoot of 'Positive or Negative Comments, which do you prefer' but I think it has its own life as a topic, considering that it deals with people's reaction to negative comments specifically. The general gist of the post is below: [BEGIN USER POST] Thanks to all those who support my music and have been helpful, constructive and supportive...[...removed for anonymity...] Marketing Weakness at DM! Well, this is the time of year that I review any subscriptions I may have. My main site will be renewed (even though the fan base/support has remained solid without subscription recently). But I'm sad to say that DM has lost out - again! For the time being I have decided NOT to become a subcriber here Leflaw, the admins, the supportive musicians/members on site all do a FANTASTIC job in making this a great place. And I'd like to say a BIG THANK YOU for all the publicity this site generates for me. So what's the problem? A marketing weakness NOT brought about by the site itself or the admins...but by a small minority of self-publicists here who have no grasp of marketing strategies and adhere to a rather unprofessional approach in the way they review music. OK, so I rarely get this element on my page But I've seen plenty of remarks elsewhere on other people's songs that quite frankly make be think "Damn it! Why should I pay for the privilege of having someone possibly come along and bad-mouth me or my music? The people that tend to make smart-ass comments are usually self-opinionated, inaccurate and ill-informed...and their only intention is to make a name for themselves - they have no desire to be helpful or have any genuine interest in the music or the artist" I would only PAY for a page if I had control over all the comments on there. I am NOT a control freak or afraid of criticism (I just prefer the negative stuff to be done privately - a rule I adhere to because I GENUINELY want to support other artists) - but I will NOT SUBSIDISE or PAY for some loud-mouth's self-promotion on MY page, neither would I EVER run the risk of sending people to a web page that may promote me in a negative light. I speak to publishers and all kinds of people and part of my own (and most people's) marketing strategy (if it is to be successful) is to get the promotion thing RIGHT! I know what I'm talking about too...that was my job for a number of years. A volatile situation on your main page is not going to help either the artist or the person who is "showing off". It just makes all concerned look like a bunch of amateurs I love to read the comments...I also believe if used properly it helps to encourage the artist and to gain recognition for the reviewer (nothing wrong with that at all)...but this system is being abused. And worst still I've even seen technical advice that quite honestly is total BS! Very few of us on here are total novices and really have no requirement for condescending crap. And worst of all...I believe the site is losing out financially because of this. Let's make the COMMENTS BOXES PRIVATE...it's the only way to ensure a consistent means of promotion on our dot com page. Sad that I have to say this...but it's the only way I can see of creating enough confidence for more people to part with their money... Lol...it makes self-streaming look like a minor offence by comparison [END USER POST] My opinion is that this is a community for independent artists, not just another place to promote oneself. It's a place where artists can come together and help each other get better, not an ego boost. Comments are private to a point, as only members can post comments, but I halfway agree with you that the comments for songs should be private. I think that if anything should change, comments should be visible only to members since only members can post them. But I don't think that an artist should have control over what comments are posted on this site. That, they can save for the site that they themselves control completely (such as a Dmusic hosting account). I have never seen anyone giving a negative review on this site that hasn't been founded on true observations. More importantly, I have not seen a negative review on this site that hasn't cited positives and even given exact examples where a tune could be easily improved. As far as technical advice, I think that if anyone should ever dismiss someone else's technical advice as ill-conceived without trying it, and even then, it is just a matter of opinion, what sounds good to a certain person vs. another... This is what I THINK this site is designed to do: Empower artists with real, unbiased, constructive criticism (positive or negative). I might like a song a lot, but what help am I if I just say 'wow this is awesome!' especially if I see room for improvement? Wouldn't it be more helpful to the artist to say 'wow this is great but I think xxx could use some work?'...Shouldn't the idea be to help other artists make their music better with our opinions? If not that, then how are we any more than a glorified mp3.com?? Now I'm not saying that sometimes comments aren't uncalled for. Sometimes negative comments are just lame. But in this case, the poster is still presenting his or her opinion, and why should that be censored? If the comment has no basis to it (something like 'Man I hate this' and nothing more) perhaps an artist might ask for that comment to be removed, but even then, the fine line between freedom of expression and over-zealous censorship might be crossed. What is the real answer here? Isn't constructive criticism a good thing? Aren't people entitled to their opinions, and can't we assume that if someone posts a negative comment with constructive intentions, they have basis in their mind for doing so? I could cite examples, but I don't want to start a fight here. The user posting above had a 'valid negative opinion about what's going on in this site'...Essentially, bad-mouthing the bad mouthers contradicts the logic put forth in that post, but is exactly what happened. I for one offer constructive criticism that may sometimes be considered negative, but I know my opinions aren't BS, and my technical advice is worth listening to. The biggest mistake that any one of us can make as artists is to think that there is no room for improvement, or to think that just because someone doesn't like something and everyone else seems to, they are wrong. So I say, suck it up, all of you artists with bruised egos! Not everyone is going to like your music. That's a fact of life. Censor what you have control over if you wish but don't ask a community to hold back their criticism for your sake. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
novuselysium	Date: September 28, 2004 @ 8:53 PM So I made some grammar errors and typos in that post. I hate that I cannot edit my own posts. Please excuse those. On another note as well, the comments page is named 'comments' not 'praises'. In my humble opinion, there's No reason for criticism (especially bundled with positive comments) to be 'private'.
GTLive	Date: September 28, 2004 @ 9:25 PM if the artist agrees and acts upon the comment. To do this, they must welcome the comment in the first place. I do not agree that we are ALL here to develop and better our music. Some of us are here to promote and sell their music, these folks are obviously happy with their sound and want to have it exposed without unwelcome remarks. Two different worlds. I think the best compromise would be for the artist allow or disallow comments on their music. I also believe that criticism should be kept private for the sake of common decency. If your fly is open it is better to discreetly point that out rather than make an announcement to the world, IMHO. This has more to do with manners than music, and applies to both artist types. Thank you for this intriguing thread btw. I can't wait to see how the opinions of others stack up. :)" id="113763">Always willing to throw my into the mix. I believe that we come from diverse backgrounds and experiences. The person quoted is obviously coming from a professional situation where music = bread & butter. I myself am an idiot with a guitar, and music = fun. I am trying to develop my music, this other person is obviouly trying to sell theirs. Comments like "Awesome dude" or "You suck A-hole" may put a smile or frown on our faces, but do little for the artist in either case. Comments like "Your piano sounds tinny" have the potential to be helpful, if the artist agrees and acts upon the comment. To do this, they must welcome the comment in the first place. I do not agree that we are ALL here to develop and better our music. Some of us are here to promote and sell their music, these folks are obviously happy with their sound and want to have it exposed without unwelcome remarks. Two different worlds. I think the best compromise would be for the artist allow or disallow comments on their music. I also believe that criticism should be kept private for the sake of common decency. If your fly is open it is better to discreetly point that out rather than make an announcement to the world, IMHO. This has more to do with manners than music, and applies to both artist types. Thank you for this intriguing thread btw. I can't wait to see how the opinions of others stack up.
novuselysium	Date: September 28, 2004 @ 10:19 PM well I hope that it incites some kind of thought in people's minds. I for one am just trying to figure out where everybody is coming from. Gary I never thought of having the 'comments' page be optional completely for the songs. I think that's a great idea. I think that the comments pages are open to criticism, and as such, it makes it difficult to enforce the 'private criticism' rule. So, making the comments page completely optional would really be a great solution. I also agree with what you said about 'two different worlds', but again it's tough to draw the line and know what to do if you're Dmusic's administrators. Good post...
hueseph	Date: September 29, 2004 @ 1:31 AM Thank you very much.
hueseph	Date: September 29, 2004 @ 1:57 AM
Rodrica	Date: September 29, 2004 @ 5:20 AM Noveuselysium...As you have found it necessary to drag my net page on to the forums I feel I have to respond. Firstly what Gary said is what I have been asking for here for some time - an option. We are NOT talking about bruised egos here. You are fairly new here so luckily you will NOT have seen some of the comments I have seen. NOT on my page, I hasten to add...but on other people's. The system IS being abused by people who just want to appear knowledgeable or wish to use the the comments boxes to be personal, crude or wholly insulting. And I am NOT going to repeat those comments in order to justify what I've said. Those who have been here a while will recognise the truth in my statement. What I AM saying is that EVERYONE should have a right to control how they are perceived as an artist, what goes on their web page and how their publicity/marketing is handled. That is just about BUSINESS, not fragile EGOS! Among the people I know well here...we tell each other the truth...PRIVATELY! It is NOT to protect our egos...but to prevent us looking like a bunch of amateurs to the general public!! What we are doing at the moment basically says "my music could be a lot better, in fact sometimes it's absolute rubbish...but come and listen and buy it anyway". That's NOT a good marketing strategy...and I sure as hell wouldn't be persuaded to PAY DM for this kind of negative promotion The site needs money to survive. I just feel this is NOT the way to encourage people to subscribe. Without this site a lot of people would suffer and those who are bursting to share their opinions would not have a place to do so. Novuselysium...you have NOT had to deal with the depression, hurt, anger, sadness etc. that I've had to deal with in trying to coax artists back on to this site who have been devastated by the comments they have received. Call them over sensitive if you like...but creative people by definition are often emotional people - NOBODY has a right to destroy them and their music (at whatever level that may be)...that in itself is egotism on the part of the reviewer. Also Novuselysium...you have oddly assumed that my net page was particularly aimed at you. It's just unfortunate that we have disagreed recently on the way you handle the comments section. But in reality...and go check this out...I have been on this site OVER 2 YEARS! I am in fact referring to a WHOLE BUNCH of incidents spanning that period of time...across all genres...across all artists, male or female. There are no contradictions in my report. It is just very difficult to summarise 2 years of observations. I have done my utmost over the past 2 years to encourage indie artists and support them - publicly and privately. But in a commercial environment you have to differentiate between how you handle yourself publicly and privately. My opinion...be as critical as you like...act as knowledgeable as you like...be egotistical if you must...assume your opinions are the only correct ones to have if you please...but for goodness sake do it PRIVATELY! Or otherwise how can anyone believe that it is not done with malice or as a means of self-publicity? Afterall...those people are using MY page (or other people's) for THEIR comments. Let's face it...I'm one of the few people here who makes comments on "unknown" people's pages/songs. In other words if you "use" a popular DM member here for your own publicity...at least do it with some manners - without their popularity you would not have a platform for your comments (or self-promotion) in the first place! I really couldn't care less if you doubt my intentions. I'm happy at the way my music is going irrespective of this site, and I have a team of good friends/advisors to call on if I need them. I'm calling for respect and a choice here because I think EVERYONE is entitled to that! PS...sorry Leflaw...the original intention was to PREVENT trouble, not to start it!
novuselysium	Date: September 29, 2004 @ 7:23 AM I didn't think your post was aimed at me, not at all. You misinterpret there. It is difficult but possible for me to not lash back out as you have at me, Rodrica. I'm not sorry for being so up-front and blunt, that's how I am. And I was wrong to say that you contradicted yourself. The wording was wrong, the thought was just backwards. So my apologies for that. At that point I did not understand the difference between the two types of artists we have on Dmusic, and Gary enlightened me. Now I understand and it makes that contradiction comment completely illogical and wrong. Again I am sorry for that. After deliberating on it, I am liking Gary's idea more and more for an 'option' on the comments feature, and your opinion sounds out loud and clear for the same. I am really sorry that you took this all as a targeted thing against you, Rodrica. I was actually trying to more heavily advertise your opinion, which I think is valid in a lot of ways. My opinion differed slightly in that there should not be a censoring of comments, but when Gary introduced the idea of making the entire comments page optional I started to really see another side to the whole thing. In a sense, with that solution people are either offering themselves up for criticism, or they aren't, hence the two types of artists that we have here at Dmusic are both made happy. Again, my apologies for making you feel as if I was 'aiming at you'. I do stand by my opinion that a lot of folks just get bruised egos, and I think that the way the site works is the way the site works. If an artist honestly cannot emotionally handle having someone 'flame' their music, the person doing the flaming cannot be blamed for that, and whether it happens in public or private would make no difference. I still say if you have a bruised ego, suck it up and play on. I've done it, and let's face it, we've all sucked at one moment or another in our careers, and we've had to deal with the consequences, mostly bad comments, whether on Dmusic or not. I could go on but I feel it's best to just kill this where it lays and pull out of this conversation. I'm sorry if anyone took anything that I said or did too personally. All I was getting at originally is to ask a question, and Gary gave me the answer to it.
hueseph	Date: September 29, 2004 @ 10:00 AM I still think if you want control, host your own site. It's the simplest solution and not all that expensive if you're already paying for broadband service. Most ISP's already provide the option for web hosting. All you have to do is register a url.
Rodrica	Date: September 29, 2004 @ 10:28 AM Thanks Novuselysium and Gary...so we reckon the way to go would be to have a choice I'm pretty sure that idea would generate more income for the site
kingo	Date: September 29, 2004 @ 10:37 AM Maybe instead of allowing or disallowing comments, artists could determine whether comments were public or private. Seems like this could be done on a per-song basis... just like each song can be set to be downloadable or not, streamable in hi-fi or not, etc. That way people could still send comments but they'd only be visible to everyone if the artist set it up that way.
onewhodreams	Date: September 29, 2004 @ 11:19 AM @ halaka's idea
novuselysium	Date: September 29, 2004 @ 11:13 PM Halaka, sounds like a good idea. Perhaps we could give two choices. Comments or no Comments, and if you choose comments, you get to choose whether they're public or private. Of course the default would be ON and PUBLIC and only subscribers should have the option to have comments and make them private. Anyone should have the 'turn comments off' option.
geetarman	Date: September 30, 2004 @ 10:21 PM I think the hosting your own site is the only way to go. You'll drive people crazy slicing up this pie with your logic. It's the only way to have total control of your product. Put your suggestion in another light: What if this were a software site and Microsoft posted each product with a comments box. Do you think they are going to like the feedback??? What do you think the UNIX folks will be writing and so on and so on ... You'll have to get some thicker skin to swim in these waters. If people like what you are doing does it really matter what others say????
onewhodreams	Date: September 30, 2004 @ 10:40 PM geetarman
Rodrica	Date: October 1, 2004 @ 7:39 AM This site has done a lot for me and my music. I feel a certain loyalty to this site and the people who have supported me. I would much rather give my money to this site than go elsewhere to get what I want I DO have another site that does things the way I like it...I don't NEED to be here...I WANT to be, because I like most of the people and the general way in which DM is run. There are plenty of other places here to post opinions without it being on the artist's main page. A lot of people are talking "feelings" here...I'm talking marketing.
gothian	Date: October 1, 2004 @ 12:51 PM I must say I was too lazy to read the whole stuff.... but I think we all should embrace good criticism, IMO there is no such thing as good or bad criticism as long as it is professional and responsible. For example if I suck as an artist, you shoul tell me... but not "you suck dude".... that way I'm going to think that you don't like me, and that you don't care about my music, you just want to tell me I suck (and maybe you didn't listen the track in the first place); but if you say: "The recording quality is bad, your guitar technique need to be pulished, ....." and so on, I would thank you a lot. All of you are my music colleagues... think that the general audience most of the time doesn't have a musical education, all they know is if it sounds good or bad for them, and if you show me something bad about my music that I can improve.... I will always be gratefull Please forgive my english... I really burned my brain to write all that LOL
Thunder-Net	Date: October 1, 2004 @ 1:07 PM this topic is always an issue... and there's been so many forums about it. this isnt the only one. But my look on it and my experience with it... most people cant handle negative comments. Even if its constructive you'll get a few that'll get all mad and pissy about it... even if its helpful. What I've learned... Dont comment on other peoples music if you dont like it. And if you do feel the need to comment... post bullshit lies and say the song is great, the best you ever heard. It works
gothian	Date: October 1, 2004 @ 1:13 PM Oh man... please don't do that !!
GTLive	Date: October 1, 2004 @ 4:06 PM When swimming around these hyothetical waters, do not wear an imaginary suit of armor. You will sink to the bottom of the metaphoric sea and die a mock death of virtual drowning! It is always better to add theoretical layers of thickness to your figurative skin, this way the shark analogies will not make a fantasy dinner out of you! Also, try not to make waves or rock the boat, just for the Halibut! What the hell were we talking about again?
hueseph	Date: October 1, 2004 @ 9:10 PM Thunder-net: I agree. "Artists" tend to be over sensitive as it is. This is why I cannot fathom being a producer. I have to tell it like it is. Even when you try to put things lightly someone will take it the wrong way. I make a lot of reference to Simon Cowell because he is the reality. When you submit your material to an A & R guy or many producers they will put you thru the ropes. You may not come out of the experience with your ego in tact. Yes I do know from experience. Mine and others whom I looked up to. I've seen many freinds get signed and then dumped because they couldn't get over the fact that someone wanted them to "improve" in some aspect or another. It is the way of the industry.
hueseph	Date: October 1, 2004 @ 9:11 PM Psardon. More typos.
hueseph	Date: October 1, 2004 @ 9:30 PM On the other hand if the intention is to generate income for dmusic, then the options as mentioned will probably help to do that.
acousticgrrl	Date: October 12, 2004 @ 5:28 AM I think this argument of comments is moot. DMusic isn't going to change their commenting system. It's what makes DMusic unique and interesting and the artists comments are what unites the community and makes it so interactive and friendly. If you don't want people being able to leave public comments on your music, there are tons of other independent artist sites you can use: http://compo10.com/MusicHosts.htm If someone wants to comment on a song privately, there is nothing stopping them from sending you a note and commenting. And in my experience, people never leave really horrible comments unless you make really horrible music. Praise with suggesstions here and there isn't a big deal. But that's just my opinion.
acousticgrrl	Date: October 12, 2004 @ 5:31 AM ^^ And can I add, if I am listening to a song and I enjoy it -- it makes me feel something and a vibe with it, I don't care ElectricBoy has to say about it. The same way I don't care if Rolling Stone didn't like Ani DiFranco's new CD. If someone else's comment are going to deter them from liking music and purchasing it, well, then, they are a douche-bag.

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