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Inside Out (A Discussion of Scale Substitutions)

GeneHilbert	Date: June 18, 2003 @ 12:12 AM Question: What technique/s (scale substitutions) do you use - to solo in "C major" which enables you to step in and out of - and mutate the diatonic key." id="50005"> Most music revolves around a central key signatures. Here... I would like to discuss players technique/s for stretching sonic boundaries, ie (soloing in and out of key) and scales used. For the sake of this discussion lets focus on the key of "C major" no sharps no flats. Question: What technique/s (scale substitutions) do you use - to solo in "C major" which enables you to step in and out of - and mutate the diatonic key.
leflaw	Date: June 18, 2003 @ 12:55 AM Finaly - a musicians question!!! Modes - especially G Mixolydian (g a b c d e f g) A Lydian (abcdefg) wholetones on V (5) Chord gabC#D#e##F##G# etc altered chord tones over altered V chord play a V# minor scale over (over g +5 +9 +/- 13) g# a# b c# d# e f# g# Jazz Rules 1. Most of the good shit happens between the V and the I chord. 2. approaching choard changes form the II minor - V altered - I and modulating to different tonic (I) notes is 80 percent of Jazz 3. Read Jerry Coker "Inprovisong Jazz" (1971 ?)
victorsskull	Date: June 18, 2003 @ 12:58 AM I play by ear so I am useless to this discussion
GeneHilbert	Date: June 19, 2003 @ 4:22 PM This is how they work. 1.C to C = Ionian = C d e F G a b C Major 2. d to d = Dorian = d e F G a b C d 3. e to e = Phrygian = e F G a b C d e 4. F to F = Lydian = F G a b C d e F 5. G to G = Mixolydian = G a b C d e F G 6. a to a = Aeolian = a b C d e F G a relative Minor 7. b to b = Locrian = b C d e F G a b 8. C to C = Ionian = C d e F G a b C Major Stacking the scale intervals in 3rd's 1, 3 & 5 = Major C e G 2, 4 & 6 = minor d F a 3, 5 & 7 = minor e G b 4, 6 & 8 = Major F a C 5, 7 & 9 = Major G b d 6, 8, & 10 = minor a C e 7, 9, & 11 = diminished b d F ( two minor 3rds stacked) (Note - 2 Major 3rds stacked is Augmented) 8, 10 & 12 = Major (the Octave) " id="50255">This a bit of a lesson - but what else would you expect on a music board. So......... I also like the modal scales. Which are a subset of the major scale. For those that don't know what modal scales are. Play a C major scale, - now play d (the 2nd degree of the C maj scale) to d the 9th an octave up in the key of Cmaj. That is the Dorian scale ("d" the 2nd to "d" the 9th in the Key of C ). This is how they work. 1.C to C = Ionian = C d e F G a b C Major 2. d to d = Dorian = d e F G a b C d 3. e to e = Phrygian = e F G a b C d e 4. F to F = Lydian = F G a b C d e F 5. G to G = Mixolydian = G a b C d e F G 6. a to a = Aeolian = a b C d e F G a relative Minor 7. b to b = Locrian = b C d e F G a b 8. C to C = Ionian = C d e F G a b C Major Stacking the scale intervals in 3rd's 1, 3 & 5 = Major C e G 2, 4 & 6 = minor d F a 3, 5 & 7 = minor e G b 4, 6 & 8 = Major F a C 5, 7 & 9 = Major G b d 6, 8, & 10 = minor a C e 7, 9, & 11 = diminished b d F ( two minor 3rds stacked) (Note - 2 Major 3rds stacked is Augmented) 8, 10 & 12 = Major (the Octave)
leflaw	Date: June 19, 2003 @ 7:22 PM Hers another way of expressing it - in whole and half steps. There are only two half steps on a piano per octave. 1.C to C = Ionian = wwwhwwwh 2. d to d = Dorian = wwhwwwhw 3. e to e = Phrygian = hwwwhwww 4. F to F = Lydian = wwwhwwhw 5. G to G = Mixolydian = wwhwwhww etc. 6. a to a = Aeolian = a b C d e F G a relative Minor 7. b to b = Locrian = b C d e F G a b 8. C to C = Ionian = C d e F G a b C Major Stacking the scale intervals in 3rd's 1, 3 & 5 = Major C e G 2, 4 & 6 = minor d F a 3, 5 & 7 = minor e G b 4, 6 & 8 = Major F a C 5, 7 & 9 = Major G b d 6, 8, & 10 = minor a C e 7, 9, & 11 = diminished b d F ( two minor 3rds stacked) (Note - 2 Major 3rds stacked is Augmented) 8, 10 & 12 = Major (the Octave)
leflaw	Date: June 19, 2003 @ 7:24 PM I try to stay off of Tonic and dominent notes (1 and 5) during the "1" of the beat.
mracky	Date: June 19, 2003 @ 8:37 PM someone borrowed my Coker book and never gave it back. (sigh) A jazz guitarist in Conneticutt used to tell me that it was all about recognition of patterns and that you could also think of the modes as intervals between notes. I've extended your chord chart to include the seventh. The first row here is the intervals between the notes (M or m being a major or minor interval) MmM 1, 3, 5, 7 Major 7th (Ionian) mMm 2, 4, 6, 8 minor 7th (Dorian) mMm 3, 5, 7, 9 minor 7th (Phrigian) MmM 4, 6, 8, 10 Major 7th (Lydian) Mmm 5, 7, 9, 11 dominant 7th (Mixolydian) mMm 6, 8, 10, 12 minor 7th (Aeolian) mmM 7, 9, 11, 13 half diminished (Locrian) The dominant 7th is the major used in most rock,hence mixolydian mode. the fourth of a a major or dominant are usually avoided because they don't sound good (unless its a suspended chord). That being said, when jamming, I find myself using pentatonic scales a lot, since there are few avoid notes and you can use one scale over a lot of different chords. Since the example is in C, a C major pentatonic scale: C, D, E, G, A can be used over CM7, C7, Dm7, Em7(b13), FM7, Gm7, Am7, D7sus, G7sus Conversely C major pentatonic and G major pentatonic can both be used to improvise over CM7.
ashleighj	Date: June 19, 2003 @ 9:45 PM vic, wanna get some and get out of this thread before our minds explode?
GeneHilbert	Date: June 21, 2003 @ 11:25 AM music.This scale will work over major, minor and power chords. Lydian: This slightly 'outside' sounding scale isn't widely used, but is a favorite of players like Steve Vai and Joe Satriani. It works over major, major 7th, major 7#11 and power chords. Mixolydian: This scale is often favored by rock guitarists. It works over major, dominant 7th,and power chords. Its a natural for playing over 7th chords. Aeolian = Natural Minor: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C This is the most commonly used scale in rock and metal Music. It works over minor, minor 7th and power chords. Locrian: The last mode of the major scale. This scale is mostly used in jazz music and is rarely used in rock music. This works over minor 7 w/flatted 5th chord or a diminished triad." id="50484">Spanish Gypsy Scale: = C Db E F G Ab Bb C This scale is the 5th mode from the Harmonic Minor scale. This is one GREAT scale to have in your vocabulary. Hungarian Minor: = C D Eb F# G Ab B C This is a very middle eastern sounding scale that works over most power chords an minor progressions. Minor Blues Pentatonic: C Eb F Gb G Bb C This scale isn't a mode of the major scale, but most definitely is the most used scale in rock music. A simpler form of this scale is the minor pentatonic scale, which is the same scale without the 4th (blue) note added. Major Pentatonic: C D E G A C This is a very popular scale in rock, country, and blues. It works well over all major progressions. Harmonic Minor: C D Eb F G Ab B C (Jewish, Mohammedan, Major Phrygian) This scale works over most minor chords and has a very exotic sound. Ionian = Major Scale - This is the familiar 'do, re, mi' scale and is commonly used over major, major 7th, and power chords. Dorian:This is a popular scale that is commonly used in rock music and works well over minor, minor 7th, and power chords. Phrygian: This Spanish sounding scale is also popular in rock music.This scale will work over major, minor and power chords. Lydian: This slightly 'outside' sounding scale isn't widely used, but is a favorite of players like Steve Vai and Joe Satriani. It works over major, major 7th, major 7#11 and power chords. Mixolydian: This scale is often favored by rock guitarists. It works over major, dominant 7th,and power chords. Its a natural for playing over 7th chords. Aeolian = Natural Minor: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C This is the most commonly used scale in rock and metal Music. It works over minor, minor 7th and power chords. Locrian: The last mode of the major scale. This scale is mostly used in jazz music and is rarely used in rock music. This works over minor 7 w/flatted 5th chord or a diminished triad.
GeneHilbert	Date: June 26, 2003 @ 5:53 PM Whatever key your in - center play (treat as tonic) the major key a minor 3rd above. Blues bliss Baby.... Enjoy. Any questions - feel free to ask." id="51201">OK - you've heard all about the "Blues Scale" C Eb E F Gb G Bb C - This little trick is guaranteed to blow your mind. While playing a blues in the key of C major - Play your leads in Eb major. This works anywhere - but you might have to make adjustments as needed. Whatever key your in - center play (treat as tonic) the major key a minor 3rd above. Blues bliss Baby.... Enjoy. Any questions - feel free to ask.
leflaw	Date: June 26, 2003 @ 6:31 PM NEXT - GEORGE RUSSELL AND THE LYDIAN CHROMATIC CONCEPT" id="51204">VIC -- WE ALL PLAY BY EAR. IF YOU LEARN THIS SHIT, YOU CAN ALSO PLAY BY THE SEAT OF YOUR PANTS. "ITS NOT KNOWING WHAT TO PLAY - ITS WHAT NOT TO PLAY!" NEXT - GEORGE RUSSELL AND THE LYDIAN CHROMATIC CONCEPT
Apertome	Date: June 26, 2003 @ 6:35 PM Wow, this is all great info. It'll take me weeks to digest it, but once I do, I think it'll help a lot. Thanks!
leflaw	Date: June 26, 2003 @ 9:21 PM on the V chord, play a +Vm7 scale (i.e. on g7 , play g# minor 7 scale.) results in "altered scale" (lots of + and - 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13ths) which can be played over V chord substitutions" id="51213">another "instant Jazz" trick on the V chord, play a +Vm7 scale (i.e. on g7 , play g# minor 7 scale.) results in "altered scale" (lots of + and - 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13ths) which can be played over V chord substitutions
GeneHilbert	Date: June 26, 2003 @ 11:28 PM These altered scales (as well as all of these scales) are not to be played as a scales when performing - because that's how they will sounds. But knowing them inside and out will give you the tools, vocabulary, and ear training to hear and do things outside of the box. Nothing will turn peoples heads faster and hold their attention longer - than a musician twisting their tonal sensibilities. And I don't mean out of tune or detuning for that purpose only. That shit gets old quick. It's the in and out of key - pushing the boundaries - of leaving and then returning home. Sorry if I'm rambling here - but keys and scales are the vocabulary of music. You can still play if you don't know them - but "YOU ARE" limiting yourself. And maybe even diluting your chances of becoming a player of any substance or contributing to what we should hold sacred - our art. Remember this if you don't practice - there is someone else that will - and the gig you want the most - might end up being theirs.
victorsskull	Date: June 27, 2003 @ 12:30 AM : duh ah wa ummmm hmmm Im so lost here
ronnie71	Date: June 27, 2003 @ 12:34 AM i like using the harmonic minor but the melodic minor sounds better to me than a harmonic minor or a natural minor... but i have not mastered these yet mostly my solo consist of either major or minor pentonics... also like to add that blue note or flatted fifth ... im just starting to look at modes but ... it will be awhile before i use one in a solo.. also a cool scale is a jewish scale like that one C,C#,E,F,G.G#,B
ronnie71	Date: June 27, 2003 @ 12:47 AM also like using what i was told a Santana scale or hexatonic.... which i believe the second degree of a the natural minor is added to a minor pentatonic.... i use alot of things but dont know what they are... what that expression.. i know enough to get me in trouble...
GeneHilbert	Date: July 6, 2003 @ 10:49 AM Trust me on this - if you want to advance and excel as a player - absorb all the knowledge you can, from every source at your disposal. Start slowly but work at it - this is not a race. Find a good instructor - someone more advanced than yourself and ask them questions - engage them in a theory discussions. There is nothing I enjoy more than helping younger players - that are eager to understand the vocabulary and construction of music. This forum thread is a great source of information. Feel free to ask me questions. There are a lot of informational web sites - books on scale studies & theory. It might seem boring and unattractive - but once you receive complements on how much better you are as a player, I'm sure you'll appreciate the effort and recognize the fruits of your labor. If you are serious about a career in music - ( and only YOU know if YOU are) apply YOURSELF now." id="52701"> Since this is really the only structural theory thread I've seen here. I would like offer an opinion. Scales & keys are the fundamentals of music. As important as the alphabet is to speaking and writing. You can still speak but hampered and extremely limited - and forget writing. I have read a lot of interviews of young players stating "They don't want to learn scales or theory because it will interfere with their originality & constrain there creative freedom". This my friends is bullshit - and lazy-assed cop-out. And the only person they are convincing & deluding is themselves. Trust me on this - if you want to advance and excel as a player - absorb all the knowledge you can, from every source at your disposal. Start slowly but work at it - this is not a race. Find a good instructor - someone more advanced than yourself and ask them questions - engage them in a theory discussions. There is nothing I enjoy more than helping younger players - that are eager to understand the vocabulary and construction of music. This forum thread is a great source of information. Feel free to ask me questions. There are a lot of informational web sites - books on scale studies & theory. It might seem boring and unattractive - but once you receive complements on how much better you are as a player, I'm sure you'll appreciate the effort and recognize the fruits of your labor. If you are serious about a career in music - ( and only YOU know if YOU are) apply YOURSELF now.
GeneHilbert	Date: July 9, 2003 @ 11:46 AM
GeneHilbert	Date: July 13, 2003 @ 4:00 PM If you play a whole tone scale in C each note is a whole step apart hence the name. C D E F# G# A# C Then if you start that scale on any other notes in that sequence and play a whole tone scale you will find that the notes are exactly the same. It doesn't matter which note you start the same sequence of notes occurs. Try it - Pretty Kewl. So.... now slide up to C# and play a whole tone scale. C# D# F G A B C# The same as above - those same notes will roll in sequence regardless of where you start the scale. Here's the kewl thing. Those two whole tone scales - is all there are. Every note in the chromatic scale is there. Learn those two - in and out - and you got it. And in those two scale is how you build the augmented chords. C E G# D F# A# E G# B#/C = B# and C shair the same note. That is what is called an enharmonic note. One note, different names - dependent on the scale or key you're in. etc. Major 3rd = 3 whole steps - place a major 3rd over a major 3rd you get an Augmented Chord.
pog	Date: July 13, 2003 @ 5:18 PM When I construct a new solo, I generally (like most guitarists) start with the Natural Minor Scale, (Aolian mode). Then what I do is stray chromatically in and out of it's boundary's. Sometimes I also use the dorian and phrygian modes to run between key changes, but I try not to force it or think about it, relying more on my ear and intuition. This way, I tend to find more natural sounding ideas, rather than approaching it with an entirely clinical environment.
pog	Date: July 13, 2003 @ 5:19 PM btw... chromatically means 1 fret or semitone at a time.
victorsskull	Date: July 13, 2003 @ 5:23 PM you guys all suck cause Im like dislexic so every thing is impossible for me to understand
Jennae	Date: July 16, 2003 @ 2:00 PM /me sits next to Vic...lost...
jackschitt	Date: July 16, 2003 @ 2:00 PM Creation of a melody - melodies really seems to be becoming a lost art. Rhythmically pulsating, pounding, driving, head-banging, - music damnit - I'm talkin' 'bout music.
jackschitt	Date: July 24, 2003 @ 9:53 AM I don't want to learn to play an instrument - I just want to make noise and express myself. Well then - take that god-awful atonal racket somewhere else.
Nikki319	Date: July 24, 2003 @ 7:39 PM hearing.Just my 25 cents..carry on people " id="55516">Man..I love theory...and I'm only 20...I agree..theory benefits musicians more than they know...as for scales I prefer..can't beat pentatonic and whole tone scales..but of course..I love impressionism... D Mixolydian is cool..but it is the hardest key to sight read in ever!(sol feg and voice wise) Pianist wise...I like Phrygian... I'd also like to add that while learning theory..Aural Skills is not a bad thing to pick up either..it's nice to be able to pick up a piece of music and generally sing it and know how it is supposed to be played...I started off by ear too..but my mom..also a pianist..taught me the benefits of music theory when I was very young.I mean the little things are important..like knowing 7/8 time can be counted more then one way..accented differently...without theory you never truly understand what you are hearing.Just my 25 cents..carry on people
mariotrane	Date: May 14, 2005 @ 3:09 AM Since before the time of J.S. Bach the notes of major, harmonic minor and melodic minor scales have been used as the root notes of chord progressions called diatonic chord progressions. Bach demonstrated in the 2, 3 and 4 part fugues the way to introduce notes not from the original key. He used secondary dominants and modulation. That is, he replaced the diatonic chords from the original key with diatonic chords from different keys. For example, in the key of C major with 0 sharps or flats Bach replaced the tonic chord or I chord Cmaj7 with the dominant chord C7 from the key of F. This is what the first chord of a C blues is. In a C blues the IV chord or sub dominant chord is Fmaj7 and is replaced with a dominant chord from the key of Bb. While the root notes of the chords in a C blues use notes diatonic in C, the I and IV chords are replaced with dominant chords from F and Bb. A blues uses secondary dominants, that is, chords diatonic in keys other than the original. Leading tones and tritones in dominant seventh chords are the forces that drive the music toward resolution. Something must be said about theme and development. Bach always began with a theme and a counter theme. Each theme is varied by among other things, inversion (going in the opposite direction but keeping the same intervals). Retrograde is the notes of the original melody backwards. Modal transposition repeats the theme but use notes from a different key (instead of Cmaj7-CEGB, Bach used a diatonic chord from F, C7-CEGBb). By focusing on the resolution of the dominant chord (C7 wants to resolve to F and F7 wants to resolve to Bb) instead of the dominant chord itself you create melodic lines that have inherent movement. By using theme and variation you create unity of ideas and coherence in your melody lines. By using theme and counter theme you create variety and question and answer type dialogue. In invention #1 from Bach’s exercise book on two-part counterpoint Bach begins on C tonal center. He then introduces all twelve notes of the chromatic scale using diatonic chord progressions from other keys before returning to C for closing.
leflaw	Date: May 14, 2005 @ 3:54 AM Yikes!
Traf	Date: May 15, 2005 @ 8:16 AM Wo... this looks good.. There's some really interesting comments here... It's ok knowing all these modes and intervals, and lots of people do, but it's putting them to practical use that's far more difficult. The most important aspect which determines what mode or scale you use, is the chord progression you are improvising over. The actual question at the top would have been easier to answer if there were a given chord sequence to talk about, rather than just saying we are in the key of C. These chords would then need to be studied and key centres worked out, along with the modes etc that might be of use... It's such a huge aspect of improvisation and is can become so complex. It's great to see so many people here into the technical side, but this has to be accompanied with the artistic... without that, all the theory in the world is useless.. This is a good forum... a lot of thought and time has gone into these comments... at Vic.. (who's he kidding... he knows what he's doing )
mariotrane	Date: May 15, 2005 @ 9:49 AM Heres whats happening, instead of playing a dominant seventh chord for say 2 measures you “double up” the chord progression, that is, you play I measure of say Dmin7 and 1 measure of G7. In this way the Dmin7 chord uses notes that are the 5,7,9 and 11 of G7. In other words Dmin7 over G is G11. There is no need to learn 11th chord voicings, if you know a minor seventh chord voicing then you already know eleventh chords. Melodic lines that are based on Dmin7 (which includes most D blues licks) over a G bass are minor eleventh licks. Instead of playing Bmin7b5 (sometimes called B half diminished) play G9 without the root note G, or visa versa play Bmin7b5 over G for G9. Notice that the G7 chord is the V chord or dominant chord in C. Dmin7 is the II chord or supertonic chord in C. Bmin7b5 is the VII chord or leading tone chord in C. You could also play F major seventh over G for G13 sus, which is the IV chord or sub dominant chord in C. Notice that all of these substitutions for G7 are diatonic in C. Also notice that they spell the G7 chord. G7-GBDF, G7-Bmin7b5-Dmin7-Fmaj7. This is called diatonic substitution. Bach used this extensively. The be-bop guys used it so much that II-V progressions became the buzzword of jazz study in university curriculum. This is all nothing but traditional harmony and not difficult to learn and understand. To borrow a quote from Paul Hindemith “if it is not obscured by a cloud of pseudo-scientific bombast”.
scottlaned	Date: May 15, 2005 @ 2:30 PM I usually switch in and out of mixelodian, dorian, and blues pentatonic scales, depending on the progression.
onewhodreams	Date: May 15, 2005 @ 8:23 PM I miss Gene
mariotrane	Date: May 16, 2005 @ 2:20 AM P.S. pseudo-scientific bombast Hindemith is talking about is the dismal wat theory and harmony is taught in the university system
Dizeazed	Date: May 16, 2005 @ 11:35 AM for Gene. Only knew him for 2 months...
leflaw	Date: May 16, 2005 @ 12:02 PM GREAT STUFF mariotrane.
zique	Date: May 18, 2005 @ 6:55 AM This forum has got me back in the books.Thanks for post on the news pages leflaw.
milesov	Date: May 19, 2005 @ 1:06 AM some great stuff on this forum. mariotrane's got my head spinning, so i don't know if this will be of help or not, but... the larger the chord, the more locked into one scale you will become. alot of the stuff i write is in the rock/metal genre so i use alot of root/5 power chords. its the vagueness of the chord that i like to sometimes focus on. as all the examples are in the key of c, imagine that thru a progression you are now on an A5 chord. since the chord is vague enough, you not only can focus on aeolian here, but to get a bit outside the box, dabble with some ideas from the A dorian and A phrygian. in the dorian you pick up an F# instead of the F and in the phrygian, you're utilizing a Bb instead of the B. so it tosses you out of the diatonic for those usages. i think this method is called pitch axis. i'm not sure though. was something i read in a guitar mag lesson by satriani or skolnick a long time ago. but its alot of fun to make use of.
leflaw	Date: May 19, 2005 @ 2:01 AM whats an A5 chord?
freddemillio	Date: May 19, 2005 @ 5:07 AM An X5 chord (or power chord) has the formula I V. Take the III out of the major formula. In practice, on a guitar, it is usually played I V I. Really it is not a chord, but that hasn't stopped anyone from calling it a chord anyway. Since it has no third (neither major nor minor) it is ambivalent (as milesov notes). It can feel either major or minor depending on what is going on around it. One could say that it is ac/dc and that would be apt because without the X5 most of AC/DC's music would not exist. In fact, without the X5 chord most blues- and rock-derived music wouldn't exist.
HenriRoger	Date: May 19, 2005 @ 6:38 AM over C major : B major triad with C as bass note E minor harmonic scale played from C , and modes from this scale .
mariotrane	Date: May 19, 2005 @ 6:48 AM It’s like this, when you’re in C major the VI chord is Amin7, some call it aolean but it’s really the diatonic VI chord (the C major scale). Playing A5 is just Amin no third but the third is implied by context (the key is C the ear cannot forget the previous C notes in earlier played chords and melodies). Because Amin7 is also diatonic in the key of F major (the III chord) or diatonic in G major (the II chord), you can treat the VI chord in C major as if it were the II chord in G or the III chord in F. But don’t forget about the harmonic minor scale. Amin7 is the IV chord in E harmonic minor. So you can play the E harmonic minor scale over Amin7. These chords are called common chords, that is, Amin7 is a diatonic chord in C major, F major, G major and E harmonic minor. It is also the II chord in G melodic minor. Playing in or out is not a matter of choosing this scale or that, it depends on the context. If the song is in C then treating the VI chord Amin7 as the II chord in G is taking it out. But if the song is in G then using the II chord in G scale is not out its diatonic. You must first know what key you are in before you can take it in or out. Then you can treat any chord as if it were diatonic in any other key that chord is diatonic in. The other thing that Bach and the jazz guys use is to replace the VI chord Ami7 with A7, that is A dominant seventh. The A dominant seventh chord is the V chord in D. Because Dmin is the II chord in C, the original key, it is common to use the D harmonic minor scale over the A7 chord. A7 is diatonic in D harmonic minor. A5 has no third so you can solo over D harmonic minor for the A5 chord. Using harmonic minor this way gives you the bebop sound which doesn’t sound Arabian at all. Replacing the diatonic chords in a key with dominant chords allows you to use many notes from major, harmonic minor and melodic minor. These are called secondary dominants
mariotrane	Date: June 3, 2005 @ 5:22 AM sorry guys i really didnt mean to blow every body away with these long winded lectures, its just that I get really frustrated with the way music and music theory is taught in schools
HenriRoger	Date: June 3, 2005 @ 11:57 AM in classical music schools ? or any schools ?
mariotrane	Date: June 5, 2005 @ 3:29 AM the whole music education system. it has become almost like a religion. teachers teaching teachers how to teach teachers how to teach teachers et... all for the teachers nothing for the students
HenriRoger	Date: June 5, 2005 @ 4:55 PM i've never been in a music school as a student . now i teach in one
mariotrane	Date: June 6, 2005 @ 7:01 AM good then you probably know something about real music. unlike many teachers in schools.do yorself a favor, teach what you know is right not what some method the school you think might be right
mariotrane	Date: June 12, 2005 @ 3:34 PM to play in or out you must first learn to play lines that outline chords. and not just one chord but several chords. your lines must have interesting harmonic content not based on a scale, but outlining chords. then you can outline chords that take you away from the original key.
HenriRoger	Date: June 12, 2005 @ 5:18 PM maybe you can give one or two exemples ? thx
mariotrane	Date: June 12, 2005 @ 11:57 PM ok,you must play arppeggios or scales patterns that you can here the outline of chords,then you play lines that outline for example em7 and am7, so you double up the one chord cmaj7 with 2 or 3 chords cmaj7, am7 and em7. if the original chord is in C then this would be inside but still have interesting harmonic content, if you want to take it out you can treat Cmaj7 as IV in G, then you can play cmaj7, am7, d7,F#m7b5 etc.
HenriRoger	Date: June 13, 2005 @ 7:51 AM ok ,thx . treating Cmaj7 as IV of G is very nice . C lydian color ,very interesting
gerard100	Date: June 13, 2005 @ 10:53 PM just play the bloody thing, play with someone else, play against something and quit talking all this theory crap! ever thought about why it's called theory? cos it's not strictly necessary
mariotrane	Date: June 14, 2005 @ 6:28 AM if you really feel that way what are you doing logged on to theoretical forum. is it because you are looking for answers?
mariotrane	Date: June 14, 2005 @ 6:34 AM HR i think perhaps your missing my point. what i'm saying is not to think about a scale or mode but replacing one chord with many. not a scale but a chord progression. not c lydian but a diatonic chord progression in C,G, or amin, or emin, etc.
HenriRoger	Date: June 14, 2005 @ 7:03 AM Hi Mariotrane I think i know what you mean ,and you are right , i just see all these chords when i think of C lydian , i think of scales/modes/chords as a whole thing with many possible uses .
mariotrane	Date: June 17, 2005 @ 12:22 AM sorry but i have another long winded monologue comming
mariotrane	Date: June 17, 2005 @ 12:35 AM the essence of drama is conflict and resolution. in the past they considered the conflict the result of the devils work and the resolution gods intervention to put things right. no drama without a bad guy. our ears hear the tritone in music as a conflict that needs resolving. the tritone is the leading tone and the fourth note of the scale. in G it is a F# and an C. the leading tone F# wants to resolve to G the tonic. when you play C lydian it is the F# and the C notes that want to resolve to G. If you think C lydian your lines have conflict with no resolution. if you think C ionian (Cmajor) you have resolution without conflict. no drama in your music. your musical plot line will be flat and uninteresting
EvilPicnic	Date: June 17, 2005 @ 6:08 AM ^^You two seem to be having a fine time I won't interfere. But, I don't get all this scales -vs- chord tones nonsence. Mario, are you saying that by thinking in terms of 'lydian', Henri has lost the ability to use resolution? It's not what scale, but how you use it, lydian can sound very consonant when used properly. Solos are melodic lines (now who said that?), and a trad. jazz solo has a beginning middle and end; the net tension builds up until the final resolution, the solo has movement. A 'nice' solo is produced. That is all that matters. Whether the soloist is thinking in terms of scales or arps, all that ultimately matters is the final result. Example: I know various saxophonists, and two of them solo very similarly in style - however they think very differently; one says she thinks in terms of arpeggios of the backing chords with other tones used as links, the other says she that she thinks in terms of scales (not one scale over the whole progression, but many interlocking scales) with arps thrown in to break up the lines and add colour. It all depends on the soloist. Scales and arpeggios are tools, exercises, and are definately not a substitute for a tune, they can only facilitate one. And ultimately, everything is so closely interlinked, it doesn't matter. Scales and arpeggios are different ways of looking at the same thing: the relationship notes have to each other. By practicing scales we learn the relationships, discover the bonds so that in the heat of the moment, something spectacular can occur.
EvilPicnic	Date: June 17, 2005 @ 6:16 AM Hmmmm... I don't think I quite made my point: FORGET SCALES AND ARPEGGIOS. They are useful exercises and tool, nothing more. I've heard jazzers snear when a blues or rock musician says to 'play from the soul', they snear and then go back to their cold, but clever noodling. I know it's a matter of preference, but I personally prefer a solo with a tune than a clever bunch of notes. By learning and practising scales and arpeggios we exercise our ears and general knowledge, but exercises have no place in a passionate solo.
mariotrane	Date: June 17, 2005 @ 9:22 PM there seems to be a dichotomy in the minds of many here who think jazz music is different than pop music or rock or rap. Jazz music was dance music of the 1940’s. nothing is more important to real jazz than feel or groove or soul, whatever you want to call it. Dizzie Gillespie said it doesn’t matter if you play flat 5 or flat 555 as long as it is in the groove. Duke Ellington said it don’t mean a thing if it aint got that swing.
mariotrane	Date: June 20, 2005 @ 9:04 AM charlie parker once said you must learn all your scales and arpeggios etc. but then you must forget about all that and just close your eyes and play music.and your right exercises have no place in a passionate solo, but if you dont have the skill to play then there is no passion anyway, so there must bea formative stage in ones development where one learns all his scales and stuff. after that he can play with passion. thats part of why were on a forum discussing music theory.trying to learn to play more passionatly
HenriRoger	Date: June 20, 2005 @ 5:17 PM maybe it's a good idea to play practice stuff with passion
mariotrane	Date: July 17, 2005 @ 3:15 PM no one else has anything to say?
hoangthaiphong	Date: July 18, 2005 @ 4:21 PM hello !!!!!!!!!!!
just2ska	Date: July 19, 2005 @ 10:34 PM C D# F F# G A# C GIVE THAT A WHIRL WHILE PLAYING IN C MAJOR.
mariotrane	Date: July 20, 2005 @ 5:19 AM ya thats 1 of my favorites. but to to be technical its not a Cmaj7 chord it is a c7#9 chord and is the V chord in Fmin.youve changed keys from Cmajor to Fminor.
HenriRoger	Date: July 20, 2005 @ 2:07 PM just2ska Did you give notes or chords ? If notes, it's playing the C blues scale over C and that's "classic" If chords ,it's more interesting
mariotrane	Date: July 23, 2005 @ 1:09 AM single notes are horizontle movement called melody and chords are vertically stacked notes called harmony. they are the same except a melody uses the notes one at a time. an analysis of either is the same. the real question is whether there is a 7th added to the c triad. when u play a blues scale you are adding a Bb to the c major chord. that makes it a dominant chord. C7 is V of F. if you play the c blues scale over C major it is C dominant not C major 7. not the I chord in C but a secondary dominant V/ IV
GeneHilbert	Date: July 23, 2005 @ 3:37 PM Now this is what I'm talking about........ Very, very, Kewl.........
mariotrane	Date: July 26, 2005 @ 4:37 PM a blues scale is really a minor 7 arpeggio with a couple of passing tones, so if you want to use a blues scale for cmaj7 try A blues scale or E blues scale. Amin7 is VI in C and Emin7 is III in C,but how about playing off of a II-V-I in C major over Cmaj7. D blues scale is Dmin7, G blues scale is G7#9 and A blues scale which is Cmaj6 or Emin7 which is Cmaj9.
mariotrane	Date: August 1, 2005 @ 3:17 AM well? what do ya think?
mariotrane	Date: August 15, 2005 @ 2:05 AM c,mon somebody must have something to say
Snoogans775	Date: August 15, 2005 @ 3:58 AM ^on that, but what about the fourth from the root in a blues scale? that's a pivotal note, how can you relate a blues scale to something that doesn't contain a subdominant? like a min7 arpeggio. I have my favorite!!! When in a major key, lots of people, play a major chord with a root a minor second above the tonic, like E to F, in Flamenco and Bossa, and a scale that contains all of those notes is the major double harmonic scale, which sounds really eastern for a western scale. I don't remember if it uses a dominant or maj7, but both work well in the scale if you're makin' melodies with it. (major) double harmonic scale in C C, C#, E. F, G, G#, B, C and there's two major chord triads, a chromatic step apart! Cmaj, and C#maj. That's a great scale, because if sneeze all of a sudden you've gone from a haunting middle-eastern sound to a major scale.
Snoogans775	Date: August 15, 2005 @ 3:58 AM The "sneeze" method was invented by Carcassi I believe...

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