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I use a computer. Got a problem with that?

Acumen	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 1:45 AM is nice! ------------------------------------- Every now and then, it seems like I have to fight for my own dignity. Certain people think I am not a real musician just because I use software to create the sounds and compositions that form the final product. This really confuses me a big deal... I can see where they can get this idea... but ultimately they are way off base with that one, as far as I see it. The reason why they get these views is because of what they think of when they think of electronic music. They think of repetitive dance music, the same loop over and over again. The same bass, the same single liners over and over again, the looping siren like noises. They don't like it. So they automatically downsize any type of what is ultimately under the global village of electronic music. But what they don't realize that electronic music is an actual artform, whether they think so or not. They don't take in consideration ambient, experimental, trip hop, or anything that isn't what is dance music. Whenever I am discussing various issues that circulate around music, I like to make a comparison to other artforms. So, I am going to start off with a comparison to digital artwork. More and more visual artists are using software to aid them in the process, whether it would be a few touchups in Adobe Photoshop, or rendering a full landscape in Lightweave. I'm not a visual artist... I work with graphics... but I am no artist, and I don't really know if there is any argument that using software in visual arts isn't authentic... I highly doubt that... I mean... look at the work of Alessandro Bavari and not call it real art just because he uses software. And ultimately music is an artform, so why is there this big issue over realness, authenticity, legibility, and "soul?" And what over? Instruments! How come a PC can't be an instrument? I have a really good friend who thinks music should come from the guitar... now... I don't know if what he said was as oneway as he intended to be... but what happened to the piano, or brass, or percussion? He says guitar... because he's a guitarist. It's his passion. He has said to me that if it comes from a computer it's not real music... ok. Fine then. I notice you like to use distortion. What if I were to say that distortion makes guitar playing easy for any amateur and doesn't really impress me at all? Some people do say that... and that is when he gets on the defense. He has to defend himself and show how using distortion can be used in the name of art... well, he doesn't have to. He can go on not giving a shit, not caring if those people listen to him or not... but perhaps he wants people to listen to what he does and when he convinces them they give him a chance. And ultimately... isn't that what you want people to do... listen? So every now and then I will have to deal with the skeptical in order for them to give me a chance. Sometimes, it works and they give me a shot. Sometimes, I sortof convince them, but they come up with another reason to not listen, like lack of lyrics or it's too slow... you know... the ones with no attention span. And sometimes... they just won't listen at all... then I don't really bother anymore. People forget the idea that music is an artform... and they forget the idea that music shouldn't be limited to guitar, bass, and drum. If I had a cello, I would use it. If I had a violin, I would use it. If I had everyone in an orchestra as friends, I'll ask them to help me. Some people have all of these resources, and don't use them for a number of reasons. They either have an unwillingness to experiment, satisfied with a familiar format, or a phobia of becoming obscure. If I had tons of resources, I'd sure as hell would use them... but unfortunately... I don't. I don't have a cello. I don't have orchestra friends. I have a guitar, but I need a new soundcard in order to record decently. So I work with what I have now, and looking around for possible collaborations with people who have these resources that I don't have (I envy them). And something else I would like to address... Protools is becoming... no I shouldn't say becoming... Protools is a popular alternative to renting out time in the studio... which can be ultimately expensive for a struggling band. Now, what they would do in a studio can be done in their basement. Bedroom recordings are becoming better and better because of computers... I will listen to Hayden's "Skyscraper National Park" and can't believe it was recorded in his bedroom. Some people... even some who embrace technology's place in music... have said that those without any talent can have the computer sound better than what they actually are... which I will respond to with a question... "Can't a studio do that as well?" Using a studio to help Britney Spears give the illusion of her singing talent is no better than using a computer to help Cher hit the high notes. So... no... I won't be throwing my computer out the window in search of creating "authentic" art. It is an instrument. It creates a sound. Knock on your desk. It makes a sound... I assumes it makes a sound. Sure, that sound may mean nothing to you. Banging on sticks may mean nothing to you, but for some tribes... it means a hell of a lot. So don't exclude anything just because it means nothing to you at the time. Music is fun." id="67836">Here's a little piece I done for my website tonight... and I thought "Hey, sharing is nice." So I'll share the piece with you, because sharing is nice! ------------------------------------- Every now and then, it seems like I have to fight for my own dignity. Certain people think I am not a real musician just because I use software to create the sounds and compositions that form the final product. This really confuses me a big deal... I can see where they can get this idea... but ultimately they are way off base with that one, as far as I see it. The reason why they get these views is because of what they think of when they think of electronic music. They think of repetitive dance music, the same loop over and over again. The same bass, the same single liners over and over again, the looping siren like noises. They don't like it. So they automatically downsize any type of what is ultimately under the global village of electronic music. But what they don't realize that electronic music is an actual artform, whether they think so or not. They don't take in consideration ambient, experimental, trip hop, or anything that isn't what is dance music. Whenever I am discussing various issues that circulate around music, I like to make a comparison to other artforms. So, I am going to start off with a comparison to digital artwork. More and more visual artists are using software to aid them in the process, whether it would be a few touchups in Adobe Photoshop, or rendering a full landscape in Lightweave. I'm not a visual artist... I work with graphics... but I am no artist, and I don't really know if there is any argument that using software in visual arts isn't authentic... I highly doubt that... I mean... look at the work of Alessandro Bavari and not call it real art just because he uses software. And ultimately music is an artform, so why is there this big issue over realness, authenticity, legibility, and "soul?" And what over? Instruments! How come a PC can't be an instrument? I have a really good friend who thinks music should come from the guitar... now... I don't know if what he said was as oneway as he intended to be... but what happened to the piano, or brass, or percussion? He says guitar... because he's a guitarist. It's his passion. He has said to me that if it comes from a computer it's not real music... ok. Fine then. I notice you like to use distortion. What if I were to say that distortion makes guitar playing easy for any amateur and doesn't really impress me at all? Some people do say that... and that is when he gets on the defense. He has to defend himself and show how using distortion can be used in the name of art... well, he doesn't have to. He can go on not giving a shit, not caring if those people listen to him or not... but perhaps he wants people to listen to what he does and when he convinces them they give him a chance. And ultimately... isn't that what you want people to do... listen? So every now and then I will have to deal with the skeptical in order for them to give me a chance. Sometimes, it works and they give me a shot. Sometimes, I sortof convince them, but they come up with another reason to not listen, like lack of lyrics or it's too slow... you know... the ones with no attention span. And sometimes... they just won't listen at all... then I don't really bother anymore. People forget the idea that music is an artform... and they forget the idea that music shouldn't be limited to guitar, bass, and drum. If I had a cello, I would use it. If I had a violin, I would use it. If I had everyone in an orchestra as friends, I'll ask them to help me. Some people have all of these resources, and don't use them for a number of reasons. They either have an unwillingness to experiment, satisfied with a familiar format, or a phobia of becoming obscure. If I had tons of resources, I'd sure as hell would use them... but unfortunately... I don't. I don't have a cello. I don't have orchestra friends. I have a guitar, but I need a new soundcard in order to record decently. So I work with what I have now, and looking around for possible collaborations with people who have these resources that I don't have (I envy them). And something else I would like to address... Protools is becoming... no I shouldn't say becoming... Protools is a popular alternative to renting out time in the studio... which can be ultimately expensive for a struggling band. Now, what they would do in a studio can be done in their basement. Bedroom recordings are becoming better and better because of computers... I will listen to Hayden's "Skyscraper National Park" and can't believe it was recorded in his bedroom. Some people... even some who embrace technology's place in music... have said that those without any talent can have the computer sound better than what they actually are... which I will respond to with a question... "Can't a studio do that as well?" Using a studio to help Britney Spears give the illusion of her singing talent is no better than using a computer to help Cher hit the high notes. So... no... I won't be throwing my computer out the window in search of creating "authentic" art. It is an instrument. It creates a sound. Knock on your desk. It makes a sound... I assumes it makes a sound. Sure, that sound may mean nothing to you. Banging on sticks may mean nothing to you, but for some tribes... it means a hell of a lot. So don't exclude anything just because it means nothing to you at the time. Music is fun.
Arthen	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 2:24 AM Computers are also a means of instruments; simply to get your musical ideas and materialize them from your brain. Most of those kind of "purists" pple that you mentioned are obviously being "pure" just for the SAKE of being "pure" or making a statement for attention. Fuck em. You are a composer at heart, and no one can replace what you are capable of. Don't bother with these people. I can fuckin bet with you, 90% of those people who said those words to you they have not done anything themselves that is worth mentioning, let alone they can rightfully call THEIRS. Another thing you can counter them with. Being a instrumentalist myself (especially when playing the stuff of the famously dissed and critisized Yngwie Malmsteen), is that SO WHAT if you are a VIRTUOSO of an instrument. If you are not a composer by heart and you're basically learning the instrument through OTHER PEOPLE's scales and excercise but you can't create a decent great solo ON YOUR OWN FEELINGS that FITS into any bassline or beat with creative and innovative notes (superb creative improvisation), that's not something that's that big deal either. I mean yes, an accomplished instrument player deserves respect for the physical effort and determination he/she's put in, but if you're doing nothing but playing other people's masterpieces, then what is the point? You can't get any further than that. Whether be it guitar, violin, or piano. Think about it, just give any idiot 5 to 10 years of practice. Seriously speaking, who can't play well after practising? Practising takes time and patience, but that isn't a very very very very very big deal, if you think about it. It's all in the fucking notes. the CHOICE of notes. the way you wish to CONVEY your thoughts and feelings. That's where music comes from. And AGAIN, those 'virtuosos' or 'purists' that we're mentioning here are playing pieces that are based on what i just said at the beginning of this paragraph. You're a virtuoso and proud of it, that's fuckin great. But if you reach to a point where u actually look down on others just because you're good at an instrument of even DEVELOP the MENTALITY of such where "nah, being technically accomplished with an instrument is the best musicianship", then you have no idea how HUGE a world you live in without REALIZING SO MANY things. Fuck em Acumen. Just don't bother. No point doing so.
Acumen	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 12:22 PM i do say... fuck em. but i also have that tendency to debate. especially when i am right.
GeneHilbert	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 12:50 PM I take this a step further..... I perform in clubs with a computer. I get the same responses - Where's the band? Oh I really don't like that idea of a machine. Oh! it's Karaoke! Of course my favorite retort to that is "Well no - with me you only get one drunk singing". It's all the normal bullshit - until they see me perform live - then the whole concept becomes a little clearer. I've had people sit and watch for me to fuck-up - so that complain that I not really playing. I had this guy tell me one night that when he came into the room he was sure I was faking it. He said there's no fuckin' way that cat can play like that. I took a break he call me to his table and told me he watched me for 30min - and finally decided I had to be playing it - there would be no way to fake it. I told him - Thanks. Most of the pseudo purest - can't do what we do. Don't have the patients to learn, the aptitude, the concept of understanding, or just need another reason to bitch. Or they are just plain jealous. That is their problem - however we as electronic musicians must deal with the ignorance - stay focused, and continue to do what we love. Make Music
victorsskull	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 1:49 PM ya what he said
soundsseeker	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 2:06 PM is not necessary. Music is the sound that is made. The instrument can be traditional, starting with sticks, moving to wind instruments, string instruments,etc.. The computer is just another instrument. Electronic instruments are still instruments. in•stru•ment \"in-stre-ment\ n 1 : a device used to produce music Will now go and listen to your music.
invocati	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 2:37 PM I agree with soundsseeker 100%.
Veracohr	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 4:52 PM Some of the problem is the fact that a lot of people who don't make electronic music don't know the process we go through to make it. They might assume we take some pre-made drum loop, toss in some pre-made melodies, and there's our song. Hell, some people actually do do that. But for those of us who don't, even if we are making dance music, there's a songwriting process no different than any other musician's songwriting process. It's just ignorance. And anyway, probably most of the "purist" attitude is some kind of sub-conscious fear of becoming obsolete. "If people can make music on their computer, how can I as a guitarist survive?"
ashleighj	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 5:26 PM i'm not really into most electronic music simply because most of the styles of it don't really appeal to me. sure, people can use a computer to make any genre -- country, death metal, you name it. but most of it is dance music of one sort or another, and most of the rest is orchestra arrangements. and it's just not my thing. that said, those of you doing it are certainly composers -- and performers, in some cases -- and i'm not here to try to take that away from you. it's just as real as more "tradionally-made" (for lack of a better term) music. you still get out what you put in. one thing i tend to generally dislike about it, though, it that it often seems to lack a human touch. sometimes, you can really feel someone digging into guitar strings, putting that extra punch into the kickdrum, and so forth.. and for me at least, hearing "mistakes" in the music makes it somehow feel more personal. that slightly-off note, that missed beat, that wrong chord.. maybe i'm wacko, but that stuff appeals to me, and i've found it lacking in electronic music. (admittedly, i don't listen to a great deal, so correct me if i'm somehow wrong about it.) not that the problem (as i see it) is exclusive to electronic music, of course. just listen to homogenous mainstream songs. still, that was quite well written, arthen.. so let me end with a question: if everyone could appreciate art, would it still be art?
Jazzmary2U	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 10:30 PM I don't have a problem with computer generated art of any form.. been around for a while and gonna be around for a while longer.
Jazzmary2U	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 10:32 PM .. just because some "major label" producers are lazy and don't even change the loops that came with the software doesn't make all emusic bad. It is a tool, an instrument like any other.. If David Byrne can jam with a casio and a boom box.. get my drift?
Veracohr	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 10:46 PM That's the main reason I don't like the practice of "point-and-click" songwriting. For instance, those who might use something like Reason or Fruity Loops, and do everything with their mouse. I am of the opinion that one should use a keyboard for these things. Especially because of playing dynamics, what is called "velocity" in MIDI-land. When you just point and click your notes in, even if you put in varying velocity, it's still not as natural as real keyboard playing. Then of course there's the things that one just can't play at their level of ability, or anyone for that matter. Then you have to go point-and-click and just live with it. I'm not so good a keyboard player that I can play 1/16 notes at 150bpm accurately." id="67957">"one thing i tend to generally dislike about it, though, it that it often seems to lack a human touch. sometimes, you can really feel someone digging into guitar strings, putting that extra punch into the kickdrum, and so forth.. and for me at least, hearing "mistakes" in the music makes it somehow feel more personal. that slightly-off note, that missed beat, that wrong chord.. maybe i'm wacko, but that stuff appeals to me, and i've found it lacking in electronic music. (admittedly, i don't listen to a great deal, so correct me if i'm somehow wrong about it.)" That's the main reason I don't like the practice of "point-and-click" songwriting. For instance, those who might use something like Reason or Fruity Loops, and do everything with their m ouse. I am of the opinion that one should use a keyboard for these things. Especially because of playing dynamics, what is called "velocity" in MIDI-land. When you just point and click your notes in, even if you put in varying velocity, it's still not as natural as real keyboard playing. Then of course there's the things that one just can't play at their level of ability, or anyone for that matter. Then you have to go point-and-click and just live with it. I'm not so good a keyboard player that I can play 1/16 notes at 150bpm accurately.
Acumen	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 11:07 PM that's like myself. i do have a really old and cheap organ in the house, i sometimes use it to come up with a few ideas, but it's nowhere near suitable for recording. i will be definately be getting a nice keyboard (with midi of chorse), but right now... i'm simply using the keyboard i'm using to type this. sure, it ain't a spectacular apparatus, but it does make things a little "imperfect" (if you could say that). i'm not a perfectionist... not to say i don't like to fine tune... i still point and click, but that's the sort of thing i need to do to get the sound i want.
Acumen	Date: November 6, 2003 @ 11:09 PM if you can tell by the drawings and cards that i have done for a few dmusicers, it's obvious i don't strive to be perfect.
fireball87	Date: November 7, 2003 @ 1:07 AM Hmmmm looks both ways... yeah... im one of those premade loopers, i do everythign with a m ouse blah blah blah, i edit the loops in various programs blah blah blah... hell, what I do is music, if anyone disagrees with me... i don't really care... I started this thing as a hobby, I never thought as many people who did listen to it would... so whatever... mainly, the origonal intintion of what i do was an inside joke.
Jesuszilla	Date: November 7, 2003 @ 7:36 AM I am a doctor, and I prescribe the following: Massive Attack - Angel; Inertia Creeps Prodigy - Voodoo People; Their Law Nine Inch Nails - Wish; Where is everybody? To be consumed three times a day. Now there's some decent Electronica. The bastards at the BBC play Angel on every single 'advert' for a reason y'know, not just because they're bastards! Oh yeah, that Cry Me a River song by Justin Timberlake was done in Reason along with loaaaaaaads of otttherssssssses, yes, tricksy lights... I come up with some stuff on guitar but mainly I use computer and with a click click here and a click click there.
Arthen	Date: November 7, 2003 @ 2:43 PM ashleighj well if u're talking about authencity of sound then of course nothing beats live players. but we're on the topic of "using computers to compose music is cheap" accusation...doesn't matter what you use to compose. However production-wise....i'd go for live players hands down. =)
Arthen	Date: November 7, 2003 @ 3:03 PM Verachor - And anyway, probably most of the "purist" attitude is some kind of sub-conscious fear of becoming obsolete. "If people can make music on their computer, how can I as a guitarist survive?" i don't think that's the case, because the sound of digital samples can never replace the authencity of live players, so we never worry about that. =) it's got nothing to do with obseletion...the computer is just a tool to get ideas out. i just can't stand it when so called "purists" make use of and abuse very respectable statements like "nothing beats the real thing" to make themselves feel better about whatever inferior reasons they may have.
Veracohr	Date: November 7, 2003 @ 8:32 PM Arthen, I think your last post there was pretty similar to what I meant.
mracky	Date: November 7, 2003 @ 9:52 PM do this to prove it. hit a wrong note at the end of a melody, then harp on that note in the reiteration of the melody (with jazzy arpeggios). it will train your ear to hear your wrong note as being an 'artistic statement' or clue or warning or whatever. the upside is that you will accept that wrong note in the future musical statements and see how/if it resolves itself. a very poweerful tool. computers don't do it. they will eventually. when they decipher creativity.
Tudris	Date: November 7, 2003 @ 10:45 PM Yeah, agreed... But it's not just limited to electronica... I had once had a screwoff bass player (nothing against bass players, this one just happened to be a screwoff ) tell me that the drums weren't an instrument. He was talking about how many different people in our circle of homies played an instrument, and he left me out of the count. "I don't consider the drums to be an instrument." "Define instrument. Please. I'd like to hear it." "Something that produces sound through vibration." Ha. If the ignorance of his first statement didn't convince you that he was a screwoff, I'm sure that last one did. I proceeded to let him know that, not only did the drums indeed produce sound, they did it through vibration. I further explained that sound is impossible without vibration. He kind of stood there with a stupid look on his face for a few seconds, then said, "I still don't think the drums are an instrument. They just aren't." Some people just can't be convinced. Then again, some people probably aren't enjoying music as much as they should be (without a filthy, elitist attitude designed to make themselves feel bigger).
Arthen	Date: November 8, 2003 @ 6:00 AM Verachor, live players do not have that inferior thing mentioned. I was talking about those who do not do anything themselves (don't play any instrument, or compose or do any music) but only know how to stand there and talk.
Arthen	Date: November 8, 2003 @ 6:03 AM Tudris - Some people just can't be convinced. Then again, some people probably aren't enjoying music as much as they should be (without a filthy, elitist attitude designed to make themselves feel bigger). Fuck yeah.
GeneHilbert	Date: November 8, 2003 @ 1:57 PM Rantin' & Ravin'
Etheracide	Date: November 8, 2003 @ 5:54 PM That one argument that was brought up is the same as the one in the cinematic industry about computer generated graphics taking the place of live actors. Anything that's computer generated is simply another way to do anything. As with the cinema, computers allow filmmakers to make films that otherwise may not be possible. And looking at the movies today, many awesome special effects that really add to movies featuring living actors couldn't be done without computers. It's all just another way to do something.
alcoholicskunk	Date: November 10, 2003 @ 8:23 PM OH this sounds all too familiar. Lately I've been doing open mics at a "Song Writers Circus" meaning orignal songs only. The responses have varied but for the most part people have seemed to enjoy it. Well a couple weeks ago I had someone say basically say I shouldn't be playing on that night because it's for songwriters. When I explained that I do write my own songs he said well I dont' use instuments. I said this was true in the traditional sense but what I'm doing does take some music knowlege. Anyway we argued about this for about 10 minutes but when he said I should get with "established" musicians I just left.
Maffmatix	Date: November 10, 2003 @ 9:10 PM Yea all we use is a computer and a keyboard. And look, we're a musical genius monster.
KevBrock	Date: November 16, 2003 @ 12:10 PM Even rock musicians use computers to put fake instruments into their music. If a rock musician is a one man band, you can put in fake bass and drums, a lot of rock musicians do this. I find nothing wrong with computerized music. It's just music. If people don't like what you do, then like you said before, tell them to go fuck 'em self. As long as you're happy to what you are doing than who cares what people think. You're just doing your own thing.
edgen	Date: November 18, 2003 @ 2:52 AM I think you've gota know the basic mechanics behind instruments and how they sound. It will ultimately help you out when you are creating music electronically. Those that pick up fruity loops or acid and punch in premade music doesn't really count for me. If they know how to manipulate a guitar sound, find that snare hit realistically, and knowledge of pan/fades/reverbs.. Tis all good. If they tell you fake, tell em to shove it and then ask.. "What do you use to record your music to CD?"
ChillinBuzz	Date: November 18, 2003 @ 3:25 AM Those who listen to my electronic music enjoy it. I like to experiment - and i experiment with whatever instrument is in my hands, be it a guitar, a keyboard, a computer loaded with samples, its all the same to me - - its a means to express myself musically. and no matter what ppl say about it being NOT music, then if not, why do they listen? i am not bothered which instrument i get to play, as a few know from months ago in a city north of me where we teamed up to jam in a studio mixing guitars, keyboards and all manner of stuff, the bottom line is simple: if it makes a sound, its capable of music. having said that, ive been using a computer of sorts since the early 80s to make sounds and ultimately the majority of my music? it sounds good to me, so i aint changing my ways for no critic.
jenspen33	Date: November 27, 2003 @ 12:28 AM Music can be made with anything. I use my computer (Cakewalk/Acid software) combined with my General MIDI Yamaha keyboard, a MIC and inexpensive pre-amp, and... er... that's about it. I work best this way. I enjoy trying new things, and it's easy to do such with a computer. Like.. making music using a child's toy and some effects plug-ins and transposing the outcome. Too fun. Or singing a long melody and reversing the vocal, adding reverb, reversing it again, and hearing the crazy "pre-verb" you get... fun! Music should be FUN! There should be no RULES in music. Once you place a rule on a song, the song's finished before it's started. My computer/software gives me the ability to do whatever the Hell I want. Hey, I'm with you all the way, Acumen. ~Jen

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