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This might stir some things up

mattlande	Date: December 14, 2003 @ 9:01 PM I put this up as a response to someones post on another message board and thought that it would be a good topic for discussion here... I write a lot of Christian music myself. Not everything I write is Christian, but most is or has a message under the surface. I think that there is some great music in the Christian market but like I've heard some people say, some artists come across kinda fake at times. Not anyone specific, and even if you come across as fake doesn't mean you are...that maybe just how your personality comes across in front of people. Believe me, it is hard to be a Christian artist. If you are proclaiming Jesus Christ in your music then there is an obvious standard that you constantly have to live up to. Non Christians are waiting a lot of times to go after a Christian if they slip up in the smallest way... That is a lot of pressure to deal with all the time. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean that you are perfect and I think that needs to be known. If you mess up, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are a hypocrite, it just might mean that you are human. We need to be able to open our eyes and recognize which is which and stop trying to tear each other down. When it comes to the writing aspect of things, there are only so many ways to say something, and with something as specific as Christianity and the Gospel it is easy to repeat yourself as a writer. It can be likened to writing a love song. It's all been said before at some point, but that doesn't make your song any less meaningful if it is from your heart. I don't believe that this means an artist is selling out or anything along those lines just because he says what's been said before. If you mean it, well then... it will be meaningful. To sum things up, I think that the key to everything is staying true to yourself. In writing and in life. If we are writers, I think that we should write what comes natural. If it feels fake or forced, don't put it on paper. We were made to express ourselves, so I think we should. Being yourself is the key. Life is a journey, we're not always happy, sad, mad, funny or in love, so we shouldn't always write about the same thing. Whatever you write about, let it mean something and come natural. Matt Lande www.mattlande.com
mawcs	Date: December 17, 2003 @ 12:03 PM I must confess, I hate most Christian music. I am a Christian and a musician. I can't explain why I hate most of it. Sometimes I don't get a sense of artisitic purpose or real spirit in most Christian music. There are exceptions, of course. What is Christian music? God created music, we are only vessels and instruments to carry and play the music. Is Chrisitian music just "praise" music? Can "secular" music created by Christians be Christian music? Can "secular" music created by non-Christians still reflect the heart of God? Sometimes, Christian artists try too hard and they forget that the real source of music is God. Many Christian artists will dismiss a song that insn't "praising" God or "evangelising" (sp?). I believe that if Christians would be more artistic and create from the spirit instead of filtering everything they believe isn't "holy" then Christian music would be less fake. Creed is a good example of what I am talking about. The songwriter for that group has made it known that he is a Christian, but his music isn't always "praise music." He writes about pain, frustration, sin, polotics, joy and sorrow. He is honest and I think this is a great reflection of God's heart for music. God gave music to us to express emotions and spirit in ways that words cannot. (In fact, I believe all art is God's gift of expression.) "Stiffled" "restrained" or "filtered" music (as I call it) always sounds "fake" as you put it. I believe it is a lack of authenticity and honesty.
withering	Date: December 17, 2003 @ 1:21 PM for you with the intent of selling tons of records, there can't be much honesty left, can there? Most of the songs I write are made during down periods in my life. On the surface they speak more of depression than of God, which is scowled upon by the "Christian" scene. Which is why I avoid it, and spend my time promoting the music in more "neutral" places, like here... And while that can be both good and interesting, it is also a little sad. Being christian is a big part of me, and sometimes you feel like you're rejecting that part, because you don't want to be associated with "them"..." id="74493">I am also a christian and a musician. And maybe hate is a little strong term, but yeah, for the rest of it I agree with you both. I just went through a lengthy discussion about exactly this another place on the Internet, and the conclusion was: It's all about honesty. Matt hit bull's eye with the "...staying true to yourself". That's the whole point! You might be telling The Truth, but if you're not telling Your Truth (what's on your mind/heart), you are going to sound fake. As long as you adjust your creations to what others say and think, I'd say you never create "true" art. And as such, this isn't really a christian problem. Maybe it's most evident with outspoken "Christian artists", but I'd say it's bugging the music scenes everywhere. The single most important reason I never bother to listen to "mainstream" music (Top20) is exactly that. When you sing a song written for you with the intent of selling tons of records, there can't be much honesty left, can there? Most of the songs I write are made during down periods in my life. On the surface they speak more of depression than of God, which is scowled upon by the "Christian" scene. Which is why I avoid it, and spend my time promoting the music in more "neutral" places, like here... And while that can be both good and interesting, it is also a little sad. Being christian is a big part of me, and sometimes you feel like you're rejecting that part, because you don't want to be associated with "them"...
withering	Date: December 17, 2003 @ 1:27 PM This place could use some cheering up... Pages and pages of text but no !
mawcs	Date: December 17, 2003 @ 4:24 PM ofwitheringashes, I agree with you, "hate" is too strong a word. It's just I'd rather have silence than listen to most "Christian" music; which is sad, actually. (gratuitous emoticon: ;(() You are also correct in saying that "mainstream" music suffers from the same "fakeness." I'm praying that "Christian" music matures and grows over the next few years with artists like yourself that can recognize what's missing
ZsigE	Date: December 17, 2003 @ 6:07 PM It's interesting to see opinions like this. I am also a musician and a Christian, and none of my music (so far) has any sort of Christian message. This might, of course, be something to do with the fact that it doesn't have any words. But we won't go into that... The main reason I generally dislike Christian music is that singing "God is lovely and let's be joyful" always seems to belong with worship-style music. With thrashy rock music, or even happy pop music, it just doesn't fit. I saw Cliff Richard's most recent release played on TV today, and much as I take my hat off to the man, he really does look embarrassing. Pretty much the only artists who I've seen pull it off are Evanescence. That spelling doesn't look right, but I'll let it go for now. This seems to be because they're singing about stuff that's more powerful than twinkly worship music, and they've got the novelty factor of their superb lead singer. I don't know if there's a secret formula for it to work, but I hope it gets sorted out in a more widespread way soon...
kredd	Date: December 17, 2003 @ 6:26 PM well, i'm a Christian and i don't play "Christian music". that type of music has always come across as lame to me for some reason...i don't know, its just always seemed silly. maybe its always been too 'pop' or cheesy sounding to me, but i haven't delved that deeply into it so i could be way off. on the other hand you do have Christian hardcore - you've got big bands like earth crisis and living sacrifice who are supposed to be Christian bands(i think both have broken up - w/ a drummer in evenescence and gtrist in P.O.D.), but i don't know exactly what they sing about in relation to God. myself, i don't sing about or praise God in my music per se, that's more of a faith issue, but i still make it a point to write as a christian - praising God with my life. the message is good in Christian music, but i agree and also think it needs to mature a bit.
mawcs	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 1:29 PM I had a day off work yesterday and had some time to think about this issue. I think the root of it is "cliche." Any music, Christian or not, can be a turn off if it is cliche (for those with an intuitive sense of cliche, of course ). It is hard to tap into what makes it cliche. Or maybe I'm just getting jaded.
CrescentShadow	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 1:50 PM my only beef with christians is when they say all metal is satanic.. like growling, ect. they hear growling and go OMG OMG OMG MOMMY TEH DEVIL. growling is just another way to portray emotions, get over it. dont persecute me for having different emotions than you. i have listened to christain rock and christain metal, there are some good christian metal bands like extol and lamb of god.. but for the most part christain rock is terrible. if people want to make god-praising music, thats fine. i would much rather music be an individual, emotional thing instead of church service, though. the music turns out better that way.
kredd	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 9:13 PM "cliche" - good word! crescent - fyi, lamb of god isn't a christian metal band. if they are, they didn't own up to it in an interview i saw on uranium(fuse.tv)!!
tullamoredew	Date: December 20, 2003 @ 11:09 PM I'm not a big fan of the "christian" genre because I think it's stupid to write songs that have already been written for 2,000 years in church hymnals. However, Jon from Switchfoot and Ryan from Sleeping At Last have a very refreshing way of writing music. Instead of saying "god should be your life, so make him your life," they say things like "this is your life... are you who you want to be?" I love it, if you haven't heard either of these bands, check them out. Sleeping At Last just released the most perfect, complete album I've ever heard entitled Ghost... and I'm a tough critic.
withering	Date: December 21, 2003 @ 4:14 PM Christian Rock, Norwegian Black Metal, Gangsta Rap et cetera, et cetera." id="75252">cliché - anything that are meant as art and have a very narrow definition of its style, are doomed to end up as one huge cliché in the end. The same thing goes for lyrics. Any musical style that per definition have a very strict set of rules for their lyrics / message will eventually turn out very boring, at least to "outsiders". And into that pot I'd throw Christian Rock, Norwegian Black Metal, Gangsta Rap et cetera, et cetera.
CrescentShadow	Date: December 21, 2003 @ 4:38 PM thats a really interesting point about the cliched genres and their lyrics. i really agree with it, i think it goes along with my comment about music should be an individual thing... sitting down and writing a song with the intentions of priasing god, being kvlt, talking about rims just like the next rapper, or anything other than just spilling out emotion is senseless and ruins music.
azhazhellfire	Date: December 21, 2003 @ 9:43 PM "my only beef with christians is when they say all metal is satanic.. like growling, ect. they hear growling and go OMG OMG OMG MOMMY TEH DEVIL. growling is just another way to portray emotions, get over it. dont persecute me for having different emotions than you." that may be a feeling in America, but in my experience of the rest world, (which i've realised over time, is often a lot more extensive than most people i've met who are at least twice my age) people on both sides of the argument generally take a much more mature approach to the matter.
Arthen	Date: December 21, 2003 @ 10:11 PM Crescent Shadow - about the Christians calling metal satanic music; I fucking agree with you. In fact, these people; anything that sounds aggressive, they immediately go "OH MOMMY THAT"S SATAN" hwkauwhakwuhakwuahkhk! like you put it. If that's the case, they might wanna call Lord Of The Rings satanic as well...IN FACT, when it comes to taste in any music or art that has aggresion in it; regardless passionate or fiery; these people are fucking pussies.
Slurgi	Date: December 22, 2003 @ 12:35 AM As a non-christian, i dont get all emotional or tingly when christians sing about christ saving us. Thats why i dont listen to christian music
JennyK	Date: December 22, 2003 @ 2:27 PM Well. Music is music, it doesnt really matter what the music is about. at least not all the time.. i dont like christian music per se. but thats because i am an atheist and the message there doesnt do anything for me but... If i hear a real good song.. whatever genre and never realizes that they are singing about god or that they are a christian band until later... Id say that its still a good song.. Ive actually writte Anti christan music but i dont hate christian people.. i hate what religion can do to people when misinterpreted. holy wars. etc etc Aw.. i should stop right there..this is a topic that can really upset me if i let it. so... Happy holidays all of you
johnnygnote	Date: December 22, 2003 @ 8:43 PM "Non Christians are waiting a lot of times to go after a Christian if they slip up in the smallest way... That is a lot of pressure to deal with all the time. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean that you are perfect and I think that needs to be known." I think this is true whether you are a Christian or not. I think people are both highly critical and insecure so this leads to the stress and pressure you refer to. You can apply this to racism, chauvinism, and any other form of prejudice. As an ex Catholic Hispanic that turned, spiritualist/Worldist, I am also a Minister of the Universal Life Church (25 yrs), I can honestly say that what I say is very true. Prejudice is an evil thing and hard to deal with. But we all have our "Thorn in our side". I think you can make reference to your beliefs and faith in your music with out sounding like you're preaching. This I think is one of the greatest draw backs to writing songs about ones faith. In the songs I write I make reference to the Lord by using the word in places without point blank saying it. You know, just say it from your heart and soul and the words will come. "You will be brought before Judges for my name sake, Think not what you will say for I will give you a tongue to speak" (paraphrase) Merry Christmas..Happy Holy Days.
johnnygnote	Date: December 22, 2003 @ 8:45 PM And oh yeah!!! JenniPurr,
Nikki319	Date: December 29, 2003 @ 2:36 AM hmmm...I'm a Christian and a musician and the music I write is secular. I think something we are forgetting is that there are many types of Christian music just as there are many types of other music. I'm a gospel fan,but I never thought of myself being a "gospel only" singer,I'd rather listen to someone else do it,even though I started singing solos at church at 3 and 4 years old. I am also biased towards gospel because my mother is a gospel pianist. I also believe that the message is more important that the package sometimes..which is why I can cry at Barber's Agnus Dei,just like I can at His Eye Is On the Sparrow,it just a matter of how the beauty of the music mixed with the beauty of the words affect you individually.
Pagan	Date: January 2, 2004 @ 12:55 PM ive heard some really talented christian bands . like dc talk. who i think kinda shoot themselves in the foot professionally by writing everything about jesus. I just think its strange that jesus is the epitome of tolerance. and to me christianity and christians are so intolerant.
kredd	Date: January 2, 2004 @ 6:07 PM i don't know much about DC talk but it seems they've done quite well professionally by writing everything about jesus. btw, how is jesus the epitome of tolerance?? but i do agree to a extent about how christians can be intolerant...especially when it comes to music!!!
RonKauffman	Date: January 2, 2004 @ 7:23 PM I'm curious to know what you folks think of Inspirational music written in this fashion. Its not a promotion, I'm pitching this song and some others like it and I'd like some varying opinions. I'm not looking for critiques, just interested. http://ronkauffman.dmusic.com/music/stream/hifi/101440/.8c801bad/stream.m3u
RonKauffman	Date: January 2, 2004 @ 7:25 PM Well , the link doesn't want to work, but its on my site. "We Need Your Direction"
invocati	Date: January 2, 2004 @ 7:26 PM I write some christian music along with some instrumental music . My instrumental music is accepted more but I have had some success with my christian stuff although I have been battered alot by fundementalist christians who say Rockish type music or music with certain beats don't mix with christianity. I think those are the dangerous people who start holy wars or say your'e condemned because of this or that. I say if you love God let people know ...Even if it is just letting your light shine upon them without even mentioning God outright. GOD is a way and that way is LOVE!!!!
MickeyBreezy	Date: January 2, 2004 @ 10:28 PM think its b cuz the market is so saturated with all the gangsta shit that when a chritian artist comes around every body is all like oh they suck cuz they do bible songs, n i admit i dont listen 2 christian musik probly cuz of the same line of thinking so really i cant say if its good or not
Svensta	Date: January 2, 2004 @ 10:39 PM It might 'stir some thing up', but this is a great, well thought out (for the most part) thread, full of diverse opinions (and no one person getting killed for having their own opinion. Maybe THAT is the key. Tolerance. Simply the idea that no one (christian or otherwise) is either perfect or acceptable to all other people, and that the music a person makes is equally imperfect. As an aside, there has been a serious increase in christian music promotion going on in the NYC area the last... say... 6-8 months now. I was wondering if there was a local surge in that genre, having barely any experience in it, as I do.
gcnmarcus	Date: January 2, 2004 @ 11:26 PM Dear Theist Musicians, Why do I like Bach and Handel's Messiah, but oh so despise your filth you call Christian music? Sincerely, Atheist with nickname gcnmarcus P.S. I don't mean to offend, just want you to think of the past a bit.
MickeyBreezy	Date: January 2, 2004 @ 11:31 PM definately outta line bro
sinai	Date: January 2, 2004 @ 11:59 PM i dunt aim to have any specific points when i'm trying to write songs, but if i write one and it happens to be about God, then so be it
TameasDust	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 2:24 AM you want cheerin up ... give away free beer
sinai	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 3:37 AM
johnnygnote	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 5:23 AM Look What They've Done to My Lord" id="76996">NOt a promo but I wondered what those of the faith and not may think of this Look What They've Done to My Lord
johnnygnote	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 5:25 AM ok try this http://johngarza.dmusic.com/music/stream/lofi/101211/.f886993f/stream.m3u
johnnygnote	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 5:28 AM Look What They've Done to My Lord OK This should work, sorry for the multiple post.
Woof	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 5:55 AM Jeez! I wish I would have seen this thread earlier... I've wanted to address this issue for sooooo long! You see, as a Christian, I continually have a lot... REALLY a lot of trouble finding anything but shallowness in what's commonly referred to as "Contemporary Christian" music. And I think there's a very good reason for that... Bear with me for a second. Years ago, I read an interview with Ian Hunter, where he mentioned that he really needed to write all of his own material for his projects, because it was the only way he could make a personal statement with his music. Well... fact is, artists who are Christian are presented with a very sticky dilemma, that many non-Christians never have to face. And that's having to decide whather their music should glorify God, or glorify themselves. Unfortunately, it seems that many artists working in this genre feel that if they write their personal thoughts and feelings, then that's not using music to glorify God. And so, more often than not, the themes of their songs amount to rewritings of scriptural passages, or elaborations on them. But (and you can bet I've caught plenty of flak for this) I believe that songwriting is a PERSONAL thing. That's what makes a good song work for me. Writing a song is as personal as writing entries in a diary. It's the thoughts, doubts, likes, dislikes, and emotions of the individual who's writing the song. So by its' nature, even though those thoughts and feelings might be coming from a perspective, or a philosophy, based on spiritual life and principles, if the songs are going to have intimicay in 'em, they need to be about the person writing 'em. Christians would refer to this as "bearing witness"... and may feel guilty about writing songs that SEEM self-centered. But an individual who has a living Christ in their life, would have the Holy Spirit permeating their personal experiences, and so a song about driving a car too fast, or falling in love, or feeling alone, would still come from a perspective of a person who has God's grace in them. Therefore I still believe it's spiritual. It's just not OBVIOUSLY spiritual. And so, who says God doesn't understand and appreciate subtlety? Probably other members of the congregation, who don't see an obvious pro-God message, and discount the artists' work as worldly or egotistical. And there goes the artists' standing in their church. I've experienced this firsthand... and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. And so... well... y'all asked, and this is my feelings on the subject. Hope This Helps, Mike.
withering	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 8:07 AM Johnny, thats ... Even if it was a promo Also Candle, ! I think the deal with Jesus and tolerance is that he accepted people as they were, and thus managed to tread the narrow line that is tolerance, perfectly. Today, most people overstep and substitute tolerance for do whatever you like, not my business. That is not tolerance, it's lack of compassion. On the other hand, many christians "understep" and require people to change into something they can tolerate.
RonKauffman	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 9:13 AM gcnmarcus....please don't start posting nasty opinions in this thread, I'm actually enjoying it for the intellectual content. If you hate Christian music, just leave the post alone unless your going to contribute something worthwhile. Thanks! Johnny..I love your song. Very well done and heartfelt. Yes, music is personal and you've shown that with this song. Great vocal work and the lyrics are killer. I'm glad you shared it. Ron
gcnmarcus	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 11:04 AM RonKauffman, Let's turn the tables, If YOU don't like it, YOU leave. You seem to want to tell others rules but not have to be subject to them yourself. ah, you are probably another Christian righteous moron, I shouldn't be surprised, and I am not.
RonKauffman	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 12:30 PM AHHH another Child speaks
RonKauffman	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 12:57 PM BTW boy, I rarely bother with the forum at all. The reason for that is people like you. I'm a christian in my heart and have no problem stating so. I'm actually quite proud of it. I'm not however a Religious fanatic, and I don't make rules or try to force them down anyones throat, nor was I doing so with you. I ASKED in a respectful way that you refrain from throwing around insults. Your entitled to your opinion and I respect that. You on the other hand, have been very disrespectful and seem to have nothing to contribute but a small minds ignorant thoughts. If thats what you call what you had to say. Though what you said makes no sense. I could really care less what you think, say, feel or do, but if your going to call people names because you don't agree with them, I expect one day someone will slap the taste out of your mouth for it.Not all Christians turn the other cheek. Your attitude is typical of a child so from this point I'll look at you as such and treat you accordingly.
gcnmarcus	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 1:33 PM I am already condemmed by you for voicing my opinion (and it took only one post to do this). Should I do the same and treat you like some perceived concept of "child"? Wake up, you bigot, accept people for who they are, and not disrespect them for what they aren't. Or, is that making you eat your words a second time?
RonKauffman	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 1:55 PM You condemn yourself with every post. Do you even know what bigot means? Do you know me well enough to call me such? I asked you a simple thing and you became defensive. That alone tells me what you are. I read nothing in what you say that would make me eat any of my words. In fact, you reafirm my statement. You opinion is narrow, and you use of the english language extremely limited. I have no respect for you or your so called opinion.
gcnmarcus	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 2:20 PM So, as long as my opinion does fit with yours you will disrespect it. Now who is being narrow-minded? Hate to make you eat your words a third time, but this is too damn easy.
gcnmarcus	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 2:21 PM So, as long as my opinion doesn't fit with yours you will disrespect it. Now who is being narrow-minded? Hate to make you eat your words a third time, but this is too damn easy.
greatscottpr...	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 2:24 PM Ron, My Mother and Step Father who have a prison ministry in Texas told me I should be singing and giving "GLORY TO THE LORD" when I told her I wrote and recorded a song, after my husband was killed, called "Constitutional Rights"!!!! I told her I DID!!!! This is the verse: Well, I am walking these floors everynight and every day and I know in my heart that the LORD is the way but I ask myself about establishment and I want to know, do they really give a... (and then it goes into the chorus real quick) It's our assetts and our freedom, that they want to take away from you and me, It's our GOD given rights for which we must fight, Our Constitution is stolen in the night, Our Constitution is almost out of sight, Our Constitutional Rights! Then my house burned down because of arson. It's a long story but these words out of the Bible that Jesus spoke as He was being crucified seem to comfort me. "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do".
RonKauffman	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 2:30 PM Frances, You are an inspiration to everyone and I'm damn proud to be friends with you. I quite agree about forgivness. Those are words I try hard to live by. If ignorance is bliss, ol whats his name must be in Heaven... For you.
Izekial	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 4:25 PM The only thing you're doing to counter Ron is throwing his words back in his face, gcnmarcus. That and twisting them around. No one is trying to get you to believe in God or change your opinion. You're just not showing very much tact right now, and it offended someone. Bad bad bad. And as for my two cents... "Crescent Shadow - about the Christians calling metal satanic music; I fucking agree with you. In fact, these people; anything that sounds aggressive, they immediately go "OH MOMMY THAT"S SATAN" hwkauwhakwuhakwuahkhk! like you put it. If that's the case, they might wanna call Lord Of The Rings satanic as well...IN FACT, when it comes to taste in any music or art that has aggression in it; regardless passionate or fiery; these people are fucking pussies." Maybe some of those people simply don't like it. I believe in God (I don't follow an organized religion, though), and metal or heavy music doesn't 'scare' me. Heck, Imerica is all about mindlessly heavy beats and filthy guitars (not to be another shameless promoter ). It's just a matter of preference. Sure, come people automatically dismiss certain things discriminately, but that isn't everybody. Some people just suck they don't agree, and you're doomed to battle to the death. Write a song about it!
johnnygnote	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 5:59 PM Thank you Ron GCN: Get a grip Frances: You go Girl !!!!
MickeyBreezy	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 7:15 PM gcnmarcus ur starting 2 really piss me off. i myself am agnostic(which means the conception of a god is fuzzy 2 me n i am unsure about religion). i came 2 this thread having a discussion about diff. ppls opinions. then u come in here attacking every1. even if u dont like christian music u should b polite. atheist with nickname gcnmarcus was way outta line like i said. i dont like any christian music but i dont go attacking ppl in this thread that do. seriously get a grip ur gettin as bad as kevbrock with all this constant bullshit u do 4 attention
gcnmarcus	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 7:53 PM Izekial, "The only thing you're doing to counter Ron is throwing his words back in his face, gcnmarcus." I can go along with that, I am evil that way aren't I? I make people look at what it's like to be on the receiving end of their words. middle of the roader with nickname SnomaN6453, GET OUT OF THE MIDDLE OF ROAD you middle of the roader!!! You're gonna get hit!!! oh no!!! "atheist with nickname gcnmarcus was way outta line like i said" That is way out of like to call myself atheist?
RonKauffman	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 8:16 PM Boy...did your momma drop you on your head when you were a baby? Your not evil....your silly! Your statements have no content and the only one that appears to be amused is you. You like being out of line and thats why your an Atheist? Your on the recieving end because of your inane attempt to be funny. Get a life and grow up! I won't match wits with you, your unarmed. Snowmans right, you seem to like attention and will do anything to get it. Have you considered using your mouth as a vacuum for sewage tanks. That would get you alot of attention.
gcnmarcus	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 8:28 PM That's very christian like of you, thanks for setting an example pilgrim.
Slurgi	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 8:46 PM RonKauffman, do you realize how immensely ignorant you sound? Read this entire thread and look at every point-counterpoint you and gcnmarcus said, its rediculous. Anyway, i thought RedCandle made a good point, but Christopher Parkening (great Christian classical guitarist) from interviews i've read thinks that the music itself is what glorifies god. It kindof just takes care of itself. I think thats a good attitude to have for a Christian musician.
RonKauffman	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 9:27 PM Another boy voices an opinion! Son, your barely out of diapers and have no business insinuating your opinion of me at all. Look up the word ignorant before you use it. I don't imagine your intellect is any more sound than this other boys. I don't normally do this type of thing, but you children have pushed the wrong persons buttons today. It saddens me to think I once fought to protect people like you.
gcnmarcus	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 9:30 PM oh no not the wrong buttons!!!
gcnmarcus	Date: January 3, 2004 @ 9:30 PM oh no not the wrong buttons!!!
mawcs	Date: January 5, 2004 @ 4:06 PM (absent from the forum for awhile...) RedCandle: you are absolutely right. It's a personal thing. That's why, I think, a lot of "church music" sucks IMO. In church, the musicu should glorify god, but many so-called "worship leaders" are engaged in self-promotion via praise music. Outside of church, there are many artists trying to make up for what's missing in church instead of telling everyone (musically) how they feel. Thanks for the perspective.
mawcs	Date: January 5, 2004 @ 4:38 PM gcnmarcus, aka "atheist with the nickname gcnmarcus": The reason you like Bach and Handel is because it is great, inspired, well-written music. I'm sure there is Baroque/Classical composers from the same period(s) that you don't like because it wasn't great, inspired, well-written music . Today, you will find great, inspired, well-written music and some not-so-great-inspired-well-written music that you might call "filth" but it has nothing to do with "Christian" or "aetheist" or "agnostic" or "ignorant." If you think Christian music = bad music, you're mistaken. Just the same as if someone thinks metal = Satanic music they are mistaken. Neither case justifies name-calling and insults. I think you are capable of intellectual conversation, if you want, but it appears you are more interested in provoking people. Be cool and see how people respond.
musicpicks	Date: January 5, 2004 @ 4:53 PM "it appears you are more interested in provoking people" This being based off a conditional, "If you think Christian music = bad music, you're mistaken." Are you proposing the hypothetical I am to take and then arguing it? Isn't that a bit much like arguing with yourself? Correction: At no point in time did I say all Christian was bad. I even cited a piece of music I liked. gcnmarcus
johnnygnote	Date: January 5, 2004 @ 5:13 PM Slurgi; I saw Christopher Parkening at a small venue on a college campus in East Texas in 1970, he is an outstanding guitarist, and I tend to agree with his philosophy about the music.
Maffmatix	Date: January 5, 2004 @ 7:04 PM No pun intended but- OH MY GOD RonKauffman. Let me start with this: I know you're going to respond to this in some way of calling me a child or saying I'm little, which by the way is really mature, but I have to say it anyways. You're a Christian right? STOP FUCKING AROUND with gcnmarcus then! Damnit, no matter how argumentative gcnmarcus may be, it doesn't make things better to be joining in on his pissing contest. In some way I felt like siding with him after reading all that. Not totally though, because I agreed with Snoman. Further more, judging by the way you call everyone a child or baby, you seem to think you're extremely wise and weathered, then prove it by being the better man and stop fighting. Christ. This is pathetic. A guy named DislocatedBoner teaching a seemingly respected man a lesson on how to put out fires.
musicpicks	Date: January 5, 2004 @ 7:24 PM Dislocated Boner, Fecal matter, does it matter? funny stuff man, keep up the good work. Pissing contest = What are the good points in Christian music? I would disagree, it's not a pissing contest. You make of it what you will though.
Maffmatix	Date: January 5, 2004 @ 9:44 PM You misunderstood musicpick- The pissing contest became these two (Ron and Marcus) arguing like children. But thanks for the music comments.
onewhodreams	Date: January 5, 2004 @ 11:04 PM What's this? (look 5 posts up) gcnmarcus signing as musicpicks? Oops!!! Did we forget to log out there gcn? Hmmm? ~~musicpicks Date: January 5, 2004 @ 4:53 PM "it appears you are more interested in provoking people" This being based off a conditional, "If you think Christian music = bad music, you're mistaken." Are you proposing the hypothetical I am to take and then arguing it? Isn't that a bit much like arguing with yourself? Correction: At no point in time did I say all Christian was bad. I even cited a piece of music I liked. gcnmarcus ~~
username101	Date: January 5, 2004 @ 11:16 PM gcnmarcus signing as musicpicks? I am not out to hide one, I signed on with musicpicks and to clarify it was me, I signed that way. Now I am username101 gcnmarcus, musicpicks
onewhodreams	Date: January 5, 2004 @ 11:19 PM Why?
username101	Date: January 5, 2004 @ 11:37 PM one, If there is something you want cleared up, sure. Let me know. I would prefer notes, or PM me through my messengers at http://www.mcw.us/contact.htm since if they are able to close this account down indefinately your message will not be read. I am done with the forum posts as a means to prove my point or arguments cause as we can see it doesn't matter if you win it or you don't the powers at be, well they have the power and like I said in the gcnmarcus account, I refuse to be controlled. I do like the community of people, which is why I keep coming. I just exposed now who wants the control. If DMusic really didn't care about control, they wouldn't be banning my accounts. Again, I value your questions, your statements, and your opinions, but let's do it in a format we won't be censored. My contacts are listed at http://www.mcw.us/contact.htm I will answer any questions you have and discuss anything within reason you may have.
Slurgi	Date: January 6, 2004 @ 12:24 AM johnnygnote, thats awesome, i am jealous. He IS an amazing guitarist, although i've never seen him personally (although if i practice up i might see him at his master class this summer, that would rock and RonKauffman, does it make you feel good to call everyone "boy"? Do you like that superiority What do you mean i have no business insulting you? I said you sounded immensely ignorant (which i still think you do), is there a problem with voicing my opinion? And i think my intellect is quite sound, i'm not an idiot, and its pointless to argue who is smarter this-that, so who cares? /me just joined the pissing contest
figfarmer	Date: January 6, 2004 @ 12:44 AM Like jennipurr says, "Music is music". As to your saying. "Non Christians are waiting a lot of times to go after a Christian if they slip up in the smallest way." I have to disagree mattlande. It's usually the loud mouthed hypocritical Christians that pounce when someone slips up, started the crusades, reveled in the Spanish Inquisition, and relished innocent women squirming as they burned in the witch hunts. Bri and I write a lot of songs.(I'm just about finished archiving them onto CD from cassette and I just finished disk eighteen of what looks like will finally tally about twenty, at an average of nineteen songs per disk. I'd say about fifteen of these are gospel, or as you would say, Christian songs. it doesn't matter a hoot to us whether they are or aren't. They're just songs.
sepidman	Date: January 6, 2004 @ 12:55 AM Amen fig......ummmmmm and, do we really have that many gospel and or Christian songs?
figfarmer	Date: January 6, 2004 @ 1:31 AM Yes we do sir, maybe even a couple more than that. That is why I've been urging you to get of your butt and do a gospel album.
pmscpc	Date: January 7, 2004 @ 3:27 PM I think any genre is purely a marketing category. I know Van Morrison sings about God a lot, but I wouldn't say he writes "Christian Music". Maybe this is because he is the mighty Van Morrison, who's name is bigger than any one genre. And another thing, there ARE nowhere near enough pretty emoticons in this thread. Paul
johnnygnote	Date: January 11, 2004 @ 6:15 AM
johnnygnote	Date: January 11, 2004 @ 6:16 AM oh yeah
Wildy1	Date: January 11, 2004 @ 1:42 PM i love all types of music....and for my 2 cents maybe people should try to ignore the rude remarks ...he is getting his happies by upseting everyone..... if he has no one to play with he will get bored and maybe go away....let him hang himself

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