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Getting past the wall

kenlinder	Date: June 5, 2004 @ 7:52 AM There is a wall betweewn the musician and the music industry. Even the rocker guy on "World Idol" talked about it. The music industry is insular, remote, and seems to be built on "who kjnows who". So...how do you get through that wall? How do you get heard as a band or a solo act? How do you get heard as a songwriter or a composer?
Svensta	Date: June 5, 2004 @ 10:04 AM Very very good questions. I don't know that there's a universal answer for all of us. The REAL question, one of the questions this site challenges you with is: WHY must we rely on the music industry to 'get heard'? The industry is very mature and has it's own ways of doing things and it's own hierarchy and such. What we REALLY need is not a how-to to navigate that minefield, but an alternative.
kenlinder	Date: June 7, 2004 @ 2:39 PM Yes we do need an alternative, for a lot of reasons. The standard contract is horrible, the RIAA keeps trying to make their horribe deal even worse, people inside the business are impossible to get to (ever try to send material to a major label...you can't), etc But, we don't have a real alternative right now, and we have to live with what we have for now. The problem is that in order to mass market music "right now", you need investment capital and lots of it. You need money for promotion / advertising and money for a distribution chain. These are the only things that the traditional industry really provides. They are "middle men". The ones who get the songwriters songs in front of the artists, get the musicians CDs in the radio stations and in the stores, get videos shot, etc. Right nw the only viable way to get around them is to play a zillion concerts and publish your own CDs (and kiss your life goodbye, living on the road all the time). That can work for young people with no responsibilities, but it does not work for peope with marriages and kids very well. I remember Elvis COnstelo saying that when he was approached by a label, he told them he was not going to do it unless they gave him a reasonable deal - because he has a wife, kid, mortgage and all that. Now I really wish that we could use the internet to the same degree that people can use the "standard way". After all, if you get the big labels out of the way then you can MAKE money on your CD instead of losing money on it and using it for a promotaion thing to get people to your concerts. Tht would ne great for musicians, who would like to be able to have real lives where they are not on the road all the time, so that they can make some money (can't get it from CD sales through the RIAA...you can easily end up owing them money). The internet is a cool way to get to people, but the way I see it, it is not developed enough yet for music. People buy what they hear and without good broadband availability (except in a few places in the world) it is not as effective as current methods at this point like radio. SO now that we have dealt with "un-asking the question" and loking in other directions that are not there yet...and realized that we cannot market through a distributino chain that does not exist yet.... I would still like to know how to get my own music, mostly as a songwriter right now (can't tour, I'm disabled) in front of the right people.
WallyWally	Date: June 8, 2004 @ 5:46 AM hi, folks. if you happen to visit my Scouts Digest site, which i mentioned in another, related thread, you'll see that our passion reflects and addresses your concerns. we know what the "real music industry" has done, for years and years. and, we're about to change all that. http://www.dgmpublishing.com/scoutsdigest
kenlinder	Date: June 16, 2004 @ 5:59 AM Good luck to you pm trying to break the standard music mold. It is the oddest thing that an industry that cannot exist without "the talent", does its best to keep that talent on the other side of an inpenatrable wall. Imagine if you will a world where there is a group of grocery store distributers (very much like the RIAA). Imagine that they control the vast majority of distribution into all the large chans of grocery stores and they also control most of the marketing and advertising. Image that they also own the farms that their farmers work at. Imagine that they refuse to sell any food other than carrots, lettuce, potatos and beef. Oddly enough all these things (carrots, lettuce, potatos and beef) all look and taste almost exactly the same. They even come in packaging that looks exactly alike. The distributers will not purchase food from any but a small handful of farmers...-\"their farmers"...farmers that they have set up with a "standard contract". The standard farming contract says that the farmers have to grow their food in farms (soil, water, fertilizer and seeds) that are all owned and provided to the farmers by these distributers. And...the farmers have to pay the distributers for the cost of the distributers advertising campains (which they had no choice about), and the cost of running the farms (soil, water, fertilizer and seeds) before they see a cent. The farmers have to pay for their overhead and the overhead of the businesses that distribute their produce, and image now that this "overhead" includes hot cars, mansions and champain lunches for the grocery store distributers. A standard qualification for these "signed" farmers is that they be young and sexy, so that the farmers pctures can be on the food labels as attractive people...it's a selling point after all. Also, people with real world responsibilities cannot work as "signed farmers" and do right by their families...because having a spouse or kids would conflict with the fact that their "standard contract" puts them into a financial position where they cannot even break even unless they are willing to work 16 hours a day, evey day, for their distributer, touring the world and charging people $80 a seat, so that the audiance can watch these "pretty farmers" in a boradway style production...all to watch them plant plastic pre-recorded carrots (while surrounded by dancers). The general public has the idea that these farmers lead amazing lives (because of the glitzy shows). They idolize them and objectify them and fantasize about them. The public is mostly unaware that the farmers may actually be constantly broke because of their standard contracts, and that these glity concerts are the only way that they have of paying the rent. Oddly enough, although these distributers will only very rarely talk to any actual farmers. The talented farmers that they do talk to, are often fooled into selling the distributers the rights to the family farm. The executives will however, from time to time, work very hard to make one of their lovers (or a famous model) or a family member into a farmer...even if that person has no talent for farming. Now imagine that there are unsigned renegade farmers all over the place, who grow their own crops....crops that may or may not fit into the idea of - carrots, lettuce, potatos and beef. Even some signed farmers grow other food on the side (trying to convince their bosses to sell it) - but the big boys will have none of it. Imagine that there are millions of these other farmers who don't have deals with this big wholesale distribution group. Imagine that they are producing (on their own) all sorts of amazing and wonderful food, that people love their food, and that customers have a horrible time finding it, because these independent farmers cannot get this bunch of distrubuters to sell their food - which means it is never in the big chain stores. So, instead these farmers often have to work two jobs, and spend their nights and weekends trying to sell their food privatly to all the little stores and at the farmers markets. Now customers keep hearing about all these other kinds of food, they might even get an occasional taste, but when they go to buy groceries and they ask at the main stores for these other types of food (like some mushrooms or some corn) the chain stores can't give them anything but "carrots, lettuce, potatos and beef". It is all they have, and they -never- buy food from anyone other than their distribters. Yes, the chain stores won't purchase any food directly from the farmers, and when unsigned farmers try and sell these big distributers -their- food (especially any other -new- types of food) they will not listen. The farmers can't even talk to thes people. When they call the distribition offices the secretaries hang up on them. Sounds silly doesn't it?
onewhodreams	Date: June 16, 2004 @ 11:09 AM Very good way of explaining it kenlinder and sadly, you're right on about it all
BedroomSessions	Date: June 16, 2004 @ 11:41 AM do you think if you get enough people in one place talking about your gigs, its possible for word to spread and you get eventually a lot of recognition. that goes out to everyone.... ?
ronnie04	Date: June 16, 2004 @ 5:32 PM there are many bands that do well just gigging and getting a following hell Metallica had three albums before they had a video or radio play.. Ani Difranco comes to mind.. Fugazi.. alot of punks bands do the DYI thing but they have a great underground network it seems... man when you mentioned wall i thought you were talking about ability's hell i havent got past this wall yet ... its been over a year now..
kenlinder	Date: June 21, 2004 @ 1:53 AM Yes, if you are willing and able to spend you life giging to promote yourself, but it is a huge commitment in time and effort to do this...and it is one of the things that the big labels do...they try and pick up established independents and snag all their future copyrights. SO yes you can do it yourself, just like in my example where self promoting farmers can promote their own food from their own farms...while working a second job to pay the bills. See part of my point is that musicians should be able to have real lives where they get to see their families..and people should be able to BE serious musicians without having to be single without any kids and do nothing BUT music (which is how most people make it). People with families can't spend their time on the road, giggin and touring. It isn't a realistic thing to ask. Back in the early 80s the screen actors guild union went through the same thing that musicians are going though with the RIAA and big names. They were getting seriously screwed just like the musicians are now. So...they went on strike...and the whole entertainment industry when on hold. Almost everyone from the maid service on up went on strike with them. The result is that actors now don't "work AND starve", they profit from their work, and the standard industry contract for them no longer sucks the way it does for musicians.
kenlinder	Date: June 21, 2004 @ 2:31 AM Eeewww..what a typo! I know I have quite a few there but "large chans of grocery stores" puts me in mind of overweight grocers of chinese extraction. I really should spell check my posts.
ronnie04	Date: June 23, 2004 @ 3:03 AM i didnt even notice the errors.. i got waht you saying loud and clear..
bayareadrums	Date: July 28, 2004 @ 1:47 AM I would be more concerned about getting your music heard by THE FANS. They will buy your CD's, download your MP3's, buy tix to shows, buy merch, etc. THEY should be the reason why you are a musician. Don't concentrate on the pie in the sky. Only .01% of musicians that even get a record deal are able to make a stable living at it. We've been so conditioned into thinking that the only way up is via a record deal. That's not true. Make your art, practice your craft, make some loyal fans and DIY!!
Woof	Date: July 28, 2004 @ 4:28 AM For what it's worth, I've always thought it'd be much cooler, to get on the cover of The New York Times, than on the cover of Rolling Stone. Under favorable circumstances, of course... If a band can make news, as well as music, that, to me, is quite an accomplishment. And if you can make news, people will listen to the music. No substitute for getting press. Even locally.
kenlinder	Date: September 15, 2004 @ 12:12 PM I have been thinking a lot about the music business and the internet. Right now I dn;t see it as a viable way of reaching most people. In the world of the "music business" where people get paid, things work in a very specic way. ALmost always a person between 13 and 18 hears a song on the radio (not web radio) or maybe a video...but mostly radio. For small genres people might hear somthing at a friends house or at a live performance, but most of the time it is old fashoined broadacast radio that gets people attention. Then they purhase that CD at a store (usually a chain store). The store gets its CDs from distributors (big companies) who carry stuff from various established labels. Stores have distributers from whom they buy their music. Often they automatically buy everthing in the top 20 in each major genre. No thought really goes into it. Most consumers are lazy creatures of habbit. If it is on the web for free they won't go get it (too much work). If they find it on the web they will not press their own CD (too much work) and would stil rather buy one (good for us) but here is the catch...when you say "internet music" you have immediately cut down the number of people who will see your stuff to less than 1% of the buying public. This problem gets even worse when you look at target audiances. What is the taget audience for most music sales? Around ages 13 to 18/19. How many of these people can do e-commerce? Not very many. They don't necesarily have bank accounts (to get a paypal account) and rarely have a visa. How is a 15 year old kid without even a bank account supposed to buy a CD off of the web? They can't. This puts the "music taret market" in a position where most of them do not know how to buy music off of the web (and might not be able to). They have cash money, not plastic. This is a pain in the butt. Frankly I think there needs to be a CD pressing kiosk in music stores where a person can download legal copies of commercial works, and have the assortment of their choice as mp3 or as a normal CD, pressed to the CD. This is the only way I can some up with bridgning the gap between who the target audiance is and their inability to do ecommerce. One other thing I have thought about is that there other people out there with disposible income who no longer by music, because most of the music out there is not aimed at them. It does not reach them emotionally because they are no longer in the age range that the big labels cater to. I wonder how large of a target market there is for various genres of music, where the purchasers are over 25, over 35, over 45 - and want music that has something to do with their lives.
blacklieder	Date: September 15, 2004 @ 10:57 PM Though the internet is a pretty big place, it is still broken up into small, tight-knit communities. Blogging is a social exercise, but it is difficult to get your message across to a lot of people. If it was not part of my practise to peruse the forum for discussion, I would have never found your thread, kenlinder, and consequently, would never had responded to it. No, I believe we have to create the conditions for promoting ourselves. That will differ for each and every one of us, and the variable are voluminous. About your CD pressing kiosk idea. Starbucks has already started something very similar to that in the Bay Area, I think. And it is reminiscent to a mixtape generator Sam Goody used to offer back in the '90s. Yeah, I think it's a great idea, but considering how many people in New York I see with ipods on a daily basis, customizing on one's computer is getting easier to do. Your idea is sound, although I would also make it possible for consumers to download files to their their ipods and MP3 players as well, some simple I/O or interface would do it. The relavance of CDs is slowly losing ground. In the next ten years or so, the CD format will be a less fond memory than vinyl, but not as ostracized as the 8-track. itunes is the current future. As far as a demographic for music consumers is concerned, I feel us indie underground artists first have to target an audience that will go out to see us live. It's getting harder and harder, of course, but perserverance seems to be the only non-variable in this equation. I don't rule out the internet entirely, though. Very few people have visited my site, and those who do visit it are part of the dmusic community. For an artist to be successful on the internet, I think you need to be where the surfing is hot: google, itunes, yahoo, and any other resource where the consumer frequet. It is a matter of a little market reasearch, which, I'm :embarassed: to say, I haven't done much of. But, I thinking like a fisherman; you have to go where the fish are. Being here @ dmusic is like a large tavern filled with fishermen. You might learn howw to fish better, but you won't catch any fish.
MCCUBED	Date: September 16, 2004 @ 3:33 AM I'VE SEEN A MOVIE WHERE A STRAY BOMB FELL OUT OF THE SKY DURING WW2 WHILE 2 PEOPLE WERE FISHING AND FELL IN THE WATER AND A BUNCH OF FISH POPPED OUT OF THE WATER. THEY SCORED. MAKE MURPHY'S LAW WORK. IF IT DOESN'T WORK CONVENTIONALLY THEN THINK UNCONVENTIONALLY. THINK LIKE A DRUG SMUGGLER BUT YOU'RE SMUGGLING IN YOUR TALENT TO THE WORLD.
kingo	Date: September 16, 2004 @ 11:02 AM BlackLieder: I caught a big motherfucking coa koala coelasy coelacynth coelacanth mackerel here a few months ago. It was kinda full of holes, but it was still a mackerel.

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