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Professional Production vs Demo Production

robin101	Date: October 25, 2003 @ 12:55 PM I do belive that in light of some of the dicussions, there seems to be a need to continue to explain the difference between the two. To be completely clear, this is an advanced discussion on "record production" for major labels (as opposed to self-production for demos or Indies). The concept is not as negative as you may think.
BenRebel	Date: December 9, 2003 @ 2:39 PM To me with the advancement in home production "DEMO" can be nothing more than what you listen to yourself "before" you let the world hear...
robin101	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 3:24 PM Yes.
BenRebel	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 3:26 PM I've waited for someone to talk about this subject seeing the importance of it I have a question to ask (Not you Robin lol we know your answer) How many of us have Done "finshed work" and let me please say what finished is because there is a diffrence when I say finished I mean final mix mastered and APPROVED by someone other than yourself for the sale and distrobution of units? So if you finished a song and made a cd and and your hand to hand selling them that don't count UNLESS a label or distro company purchased the right to sell and kept th mixes as is...
robin101	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 4:38 PM BenRebel, I have to add to this in order to explain something. This forum would be an excellent one for most on DM. However, You and I are talking “real” record releases. Most here are cool, but there are a lot of skeptics. I came to this site (as well as other sites), in order to answer questions from a professional point of view - to assist indie artists. For this reason, I posted my real name and referred the members to “allmusic.com” for verification (not for boasting purposes). There was a time I needed to know all I could about the record business, but had no way to find out about it (since most are so: “closed-mouthed”). Figured I could end some peoples’ frustration about understanding the “real deal” regarding everything from contractual information to real recordings (I mean in the sense of released recordings on major labels). Anyway, although I’ve had “one to one’s” with some members, but the idea just didn’t take. I just can’t understand that. So…good luck to you on your endeavor. I have attempted to convey that some of us in the industry are not total assholes, but it’s a difficult thing to get across. This is a tragic loss for those who should be informed. Maybe you’ll get further than I did. I should add that “Leflaw” (owner), most likely thinks this forum would be a good idea, but for some reason it just won’t fly (with some exceptions). Later, Rick (Robin101)
Elu	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 5:33 PM I saw this and would like to add my two cents to it... I would have to say you both are off on production and the ideas of demo and professional recordings. You both talk smack. Industry professionals do not know all there is to know and all of us independent artists should strive to make our music professional and easy on the ears. It is the only way to further independent music. It is the only way to compete with the industry. Production is a skill that is learned. Whether or not it is in a home or professional studio is irrelevant. I have very good friends in both industries the likes of which have recorded Michael Jackson, MnM, John Crocker, and the list goes on and on. These are my personal friends in the professional industry. My production skills have been critiqued by the best out there and they show no lack of professional quality or lack of engineering skills. My music is all recorded in my home and not in a multi-million dollar studio. There are also many other artists on this site who have as much capability in their production skills and are totally independent of industry professionals...http://tsand19151.dmusic.net/ for example is a wonderful artist who knows his craft who also does it all in home. Check out his song entitled "Shout Box". Perfection in home recording. I have brought the production issue up here on dmusic long ago. Many could use some production...but many here do it just for the love of music. It is their choice. But you can not bash home recordings as all being only Demo quality. Mine are being sold world wide and getting airplay everywhere....independently. That's all for now... Jeff
robin101	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 6:21 PM Not "bashing" at all. Told you so Ben Rebel. Some just don't get the point. It's their loss. I am truly sorry you feel that way Jeff. This is not about what's better or worse. Don't you have any questions that you always wanted to know the answer to... but had no one to ask about the recording industry? That's all the point is about. Your reading into this too heavy. I didn't post this stuff to annoy you...quite the opposite. I believe in the independent artist and support them, for one thing. That's what this is all about. Rick
Elu	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 6:33 PM Not annoyed...but concerned that industry professionals dont give indies enough credit...
robin101	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 8:09 PM Indies deserve all the credit in the world. It's a shame that the record industry is so self-oriented. That's what I'm taling about.
BenRebel	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 8:32 PM I got personal friends that..." don't Sh...T! I have friends in this business .... at many diffrent levels of this game (in many countryies) and thats what they are friends does knowing Mj Jan or anyone else make your music better hmmmm no I have many friends that are doctors (lol well only three hehe) but you dont hear me saying that I want to operate on someone because I got good froends that do it..F#%@ friends lets go by what we know ..if your not into helping someone that may need it .. cool open a thread called "MUSIC ALL THE CRAP DON'T NEED" BUT if you have and are willing to share whats wrong with sharing? I have been to a few pages.. I have heard some very good in alot of diffrent types of music some REALLY good stuff and I have told them so and..I hear some that have ALOT of promise all it needs is the right guidence I have privately answered questions and given pionters to others here in BM and I like doing it.. also I hope you do know I record at home and getting a professional "finished" product from home is what this is all about!.. ELU I look forward to talking about any subject you wish I'm also willing to listen to anything that you can teach me to grow sonicly I hope thats what we are all here for.. " id="74720"> A true professional would have see what I have written for its true value not for a slap in a indies face (silly) I have an indie label (duh) I've also been signed to major labels and larger Indies in a few countrys (wish I had never said that) If you are an indie with knowledge that someone looking to get where you are is .. are you saying you are NOW not willing to share? I'm new here not into the BS that I have read in some of the other threads you think I'm talking smack ok good thats what this thread is for say something that MEANS something SHOW your growth if you prove me wrong or show me something better or a better way doing something Guess what I will use it. it all about the music to me and perfecting it.. Yes WE all want to grow I came to this spot to grow you never stop..learning Second for all those reading this and I swear you will never read me say this again the line :"I got personal friends that..." don't Sh...T! I have friends in this business .... at many diffrent levels of this game (in many countryies) and thats what they are friends does knowing Mj Jan or anyone else make your music better hmmmm no I have many friends that are doctors (lol well only three hehe) but you dont hear me saying that I want to operate on someone because I got good froends that do it..F#%@ friends lets go by what we know ..if your not into helping someone that may need it .. cool open a thread called "MUSIC ALL THE CRAP DON'T NEED" BUT if you have and are willing to share whats wrong with sharing? I have been to a few pages.. I have heard some very good in alot of diffrent types of music some REALLY good stuff and I have told them so and..I hear some that have ALOT of promise all it needs is the right guidence I have privately answered questions and given pionters to others here in BM and I like doing it.. also I hope you do know I record at home and getting a professional "finished" product from home is what this is all about!.. ELU I look forward to talking about any subject you wish I'm also willing to listen to anything that you can teach me to grow sonicly I hope thats what we are all here for..
BenRebel	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 8:34 PM I hate type-o's lol and I have so many
Arthen	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 9:22 PM Somehow I can't seem to be able to get that wider stereo range my mixes seem to lack; I've tried psuedo stereos...stereo enhancers VSTs...all doesn't seem to have that same kind of quality the pros have. Is this where physical gear comes in? How do you make your mixes sound wider? I'm talking about like, when u listen to it on headphones, you can literally hear from right at the edge ends on each ear piece u can hear a distinctive hihat, etc. I've read some stereo techniques on the basic stuff like put 2 mono tracks of the same sample together, and add a slight chorus to one of it....it does work, but somehow it's still not enough.
pog	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 10:08 PM Try 2 microphones... each about a foot away, and at a 90 degree angle to the source (what yer recording). Then pan one hard left and the other right. Fiddle with individual eq seetings, effects, whatever on each track... maybe even have a 3rd trcks of the source that you can mix dry, and pan it straight down the middle. Thats called an stereo, accoustic mic up. Another thing you can do is play around with different mic positions... experiment. The fact is, regardless of the equipment used, it boils down to techniques used, and by whom. NOT where the recording is performed.. although arguably, some venues are better than others, again, any techie worth his salt can make a bad room sound half decent. IMHO that any professional in any industry should have some sort of training. Like the old saying goes, ya wouldn't go to a self-taught brain surgeon, would ya... even if he's supposed to be the best in the world... without training, and research, how can this person honestly be doing things to their fullest potential ?? I've had my fair share, I can tell you. I also believe that overstudying, or doing too many re-takes of a recording can make things too clinical.
Apertome	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 10:38 PM Interesting thread. I think that Robin101/BenRebel and Elu are both right, really. Yes, many idies have very professional production. Yes, it can be done on a small budget. Yes, I like to think I fit into this category However, it is definitely useful to know what people in "the industry" are looking for. Here's something I often wonder about (this is really a mastering question, but that's part of the production process ...): I hear tons of way overcompressed masters these days. Is mastering something a record label will even consider? Presumably they will be remastering any material anyway, right? I ask because I really hate overcompressed masters. Call me old-fashioned, but I love dynamic range, and the CD format has a buttload of it. What good is it if we don't use it? The downside is that in not compressing the hell out of my stuff, people have to turn the volume up, which may give it the illusion of being less professional -- even though if they just turn the volume up they will hear that it does sound better. How do you deal with this dichotemy? Arthen: the best stereo imaging I've found in SOFTWARE is using Izotope Ozone (http://www.izotope.com). I can't speak for hardware gear. But of course this is only a tool, you still need to carefully place things in the stereo spectrum. Pog's got the good stuff on stereo micing. In a lot of software (Reason, Cubase, whatever), you can do panning and automate it. One trick I've discovered recently is to have a separate channel for left and one for right, and automate the faders instead of the panning controls. This gives you more control in that you can control the level of each channel instead of just the balance between them. Kind of hard to explain, but try it
BenRebel	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 10:50 PM Arthen, I like your feel in arrangements very mood setting and I like your choice of sounds very good marrage ! the Triton has allot of string sounds as you know already that work the stereo spectrum will on its own. And you have a very good feel for the balance. So before I would add enhancers back off and work with the basics... and i'm no expert on this subject lol I'm always looking to enhance the field (before additives)so I will tell you what I think and see if anything is usefull.. Sound works well when they can breath and have there own space The true stereo feel(to me) is based on good placement of Mono sounds with in the stereo spectrum I find layering alot of "stereo sounds" on top of each other eat up space needed to breath so they need to find there space that works well ..I know I'm sounding vague only because of two things the basics input vs output your mixing with Near fields and i'm guessing with head phones (can you mix with head phones lol thats for sure another thread )so placement for you is also important what you hear makeing sure its "what you hear" head phones will always sound better also phones will lie at times when it comes to room and hall effects I use the Sony MDR 7506 but you can train your ear to whatever works for you I know your going to laugh at me but try turning your monitors alittle to broaden the sweet spot and just for kicks lay them (your monitors) on there sides for you I would say tweeters out ..listen to the same mix also make sure your chair sits you at ear level or some what above just for kicks.. you may hear your work in a diffrent light from there from what I hear already you may use your enhancers diffrently oh last thing when a song is mastered there is another level of warming and enhancement which are also added at pro mastering plants that you are hearing in the pro mixs any one wish to add?
BenRebel	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 11:18 PM "mix first" and more apt to make you go in and mix it again before mastering it again.. I had the pleasure of speaking once over the phone with Bernie Grundman and I asked him what are some of the mistakes that I need to look for when doing my final mix he told me that the bigest problems he see's is the mixing kicks and basses and the over use of effects (which in most cases can not be corrected) but the best thing i got from the short conversation is this in your final mixing of a project is let the master plant worry about if its loud enough you worry about if its a good song and everything is where it should be at a good level (not a loud level) it was suggested maybe cut back a few db.. and you know what it gives me room to make the song with the dynamic range I'm looking for .. the bast way I can say it is like this ... if your makeing a long island ice tea and you feel the glass to the top with triple sec when its time to put in the other parts it just spills on the table.. its the same thing you have to leave room for the mastering plant to work with its there job to ake it loud don't make it hard for them.. " id="74752">Mux your right on alot of levels! Compression is greatly over done .. and the main reason is "MAKE IT SOUND LOUDER!" a mastering plants nightmare first I want to say that a label is concerned about the "mix first" and more apt to make you go in and mix it again before mastering it again.. I had the pleasure of speaking once over the phone with Bernie Grundman and I asked him what are some of the mistakes that I need to look for when doing my final mix he told me that the bigest problems he see's is the mixing kicks and basses and the over use of effects (which in most cases can not be corrected) but the best thing i got from the short conversation is this in your final mixing of a project is let the master plant worry about if its loud enough you worry about if its a good song and everything is where it should be at a good level (not a loud level) it was suggested maybe cut back a few db.. and you know what it gives me room to make the song with the dynamic range I'm looking for .. the bast way I can say it is like this ... if your makeing a long island ice tea and you feel the glass to the top with triple sec when its time to put in the other parts it just spills on the table.. its the same thing you have to leave room for the mastering plant to work with its there job to ake it loud don't make it hard for them..
Arthen	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 11:26 PM Hey Rebel, thanks for the mic tips, learned alot! But unfortunately I don't do alot of mic stuff...yet. I'm more concerned about the keyboard samples and stuff, like how to make any track i want to wide WIDE, be it strings, percussion, vocals, etc. hehe Hmm...yeah come to think of it almost all of my channels in one song are stereo...i think i understand what u meant by using more monos in certain areas to give each channel a space and "air" of their own when everything is played together. but i don't think that would make a difference; any ideas how to manipulate the mono stuff? I understand it's up to the ears in mixing, but I'm now just trying to look for specific techniques to lighten the aural load off my long hours of mixing....
Arthen	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 11:28 PM Thanks Mux! i'll try that program out, heard of it but haven't sampled it yet.
BenRebel	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 11:38 PM wow you nailed it ... question are you mixing inside the triton or are you printing to software? and you are right its level with Placement that makes the diffrence two stereo sounds that are at the same volume level and are also traveling with in the stereo spectrun well you all ready know and also remember the correct use of room and the like effects on mono sounds along with placement also makes a big diffrance but like I said I'm no expert lol I just speaking what seems to work for me .. I sure others here have some really good things to add..
woodhead	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 11:38 PM Compression is greatly over done .. and the main reason is "MAKE IT SOUND LOUDER I always thought compression was for control? hell maybe I was right? I use compression for the control factor so nothing spikes, and a nice smooth even sound, I thought compression was for this, but for loudness? do ppl actually do this?
BenRebel	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 11:44 PM yes very much so !!!!!
Veracohr	Date: December 18, 2003 @ 11:58 PM I think this is an interesting thread (if confusing), because Robin101 and BenRebel seem to be having an argument I don't see. Arthen, in the case of strings or pads or any sound that you want to have a wide stereo image, pan it to one side, and send it through an aux to a short delay, say up to 35 milliseconds or so. Any more than that (or even lower, depending on the sound) and you will hear a distinct echo. Then pan that delayed channel the same amount in the opposite direction. As far as wanting the whole mix to sound wide, perhaps it has something to do with arrangement. And frequency balance in the mix. I'm not sure. Also, if you are using a DAW to mix, there's argument over whether digital summing narrows the stereo image. A lot of people also advise not using a Master fader in your DAW mix; the same thing is said about that. Also, your monitoring situation can play a part in it. Some monitors can just sound narrow. And the position of your monitors might affect the stereo width you're hearing. You should form an equilateral triangle with your monitors.
RonMadore	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 12:02 AM Arthen, you could try Syntrillium's Adobe Audition editing program (formerly Cool edit Pro), it contains an editing feature for adding stereo dimension ie.(you decide how much or little)to add to your composition during mastering or to your individual recorded tracks prior to mastering. I think it would be a great asset to your needs based on what you've mentioned as far as recording keyboard samples etc. Of course there are many other Programs available. I've used this program several years now. www.syntrillium.com Ben, right on about the headphones.....it will fool you sometimes, but I still find myself using them during mastering.......bad habit? Maybe lol.
robin101	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 12:15 AM Veracohr, what argument are you talking about? I don't even know who this guy is.
withering	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 3:34 AM know how audio works in your mix than have some automagic program/plugin do it for you?" id="74774">This exact thing (placement of instruments in the stereo spectrum, widening, et cetera) is very well discussed in this book: "The Art of mixing" by David Gibson. Recommended to everyone and their mother. Gives you a very visual way to think of your mix, which methinks is very good for us wannabe-recorders. AND it includes rants about hyper-compression . (Good to hear you insiders concerned about it as well!) I'd say it's better to know how audio works in your mix than have some automagic program/plugin do it for you?
Arthen	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 3:54 AM verachor - "Arthen, in the case of strings or pads or any sound that you want to have a wide stereo image, pan it to one side, and send it through an aux to a short delay, say up to 35 milliseconds or so. Any more than that (or even lower, depending on the sound) and you will hear a distinct echo. Then pan that delayed channel the same amount in the opposite direction". Yeah i've tried that...still not wide enough hahaha and also after doing that, if i want to raise the volume or alter abit of compression or eq, it won't sound like the way i want it to sound because the delay sonically kinda prevents it so. withering ashes - "I'd say it's better to know how audio works in your mix than have some automagic program/plugin do it for you?" Yeah that's what i said earlier, that's why i'm trying to look around for some tips from you guys
BenRebel	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:08 AM Veracohr: I assure you me and robin is not argueing I don't know him but I don't have to know him to respect him and know when there is someone in this industry I can learn from if you read it again you will see I'm agreeing with him not arqueing..(so i'm more apt to listen to him than to arque ) ofwitheringa said: I'd say it's better to know how audio works in your mix than have some automagic program/plugin do it for you? This is my piont work completly on the basics (first) less is more then add a very good statement.. Arthen has a good ear for arrangement and sets good moods (which I believe is his goal) he is also useing allot stereo rich sounds in layers (some that travel with in stereo spec) how they inter act volume level EQ and placement is his first level of attack then as I said before the second is how he is listenig to his mix I said earlyier on this thread try turning your monitors alittle to broaden the sweet spot and just for kicks lay them (your monitors) on there sides for you I would say tweeters out ..listen to the same mix also make sure your chair sits you at ear level or some what above just for kicks.. you may hear your work in a diffrent light from there from what I hear already you may use your enhancers diffrently also mixing in headphones (good or bad not saying hehe I think we all do it from time to time) understand that they tend to lie and will always sound better two quick reasons (I know i know I'm long winded lol) . you do not hear the crosstalk or interaction of imaging as they hmmm travel and blend from the left and right I guess I said that right .. . headphones tend to be brighter (lie on the high end for us old timers lol)
BenRebel	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:15 AM I do want to say one thing .. this is a good site to learn from each other I do not know it all by any means but I will say this before I put my 2 cents in .. I listen to the persons work .. and I must say this room in here now there is allot of talent
robin101	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 8:09 AM No doubt that there is a lot of talent here. I have just aquired a rather sophisticated 24 track computer program in order to find out what (if any), limitations exist between the two types of recordings. Although I must get beyond the learning curve, I have at least found that these programs are much like working with hardware (consoles, recorders, outboard gear ect...). I do know of one way of widening the stereo spread which seems to work every time however. Although rather simplistic (but time consuming), if you triple track the background harmonies, bounce them down to 2 tracks and spread them left and right...this will spread out the stereo image immensly and immediately. Also, if you take advantage of your stereo keyboards and use 2 tracks for at least one of them (say...a string pad for example), this will enhance the spread further. Sounds simplistic, but it works. Sure, you eat up tracks in doing this, but it's the lesser of 2 evils. You may find that after that, slight (and I mean slight), panning of the drum tracks will enhance the streeo image even further. These recommendations may appear subtle, but it's a start. In order to do this effectively, I believe you must envision the finished track before you record it (that is, in the initial arrangement itself). There are obviously more ways to accomplish more of a spread in mixing, but this is a good start. I also don't know all of the answers, but I've used this method on records and it seems to work every time. With this in mind, I believe that the "initial arrangement" of the song necessarily dictates what the over-all production will sound like. (This is, by the way, referred to as part of "pre-production").
mracky	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 1:08 PM Interesting discussion, although the mixology is over my head. I'd like to back up to the original question, Production vs. Demo. Demos have a purpose, and there quality (or lack of it) reflects that, whether you are using it to get live gigs, or shopping your sound to producers. To call poorly mixed songs, demos, is a misnomer, although it probably has less of a sting than the word amateur. Twenty-five years ago, my group, Mad Fables, recorded a professional demo. Yes, BenRebel, it was approved by someone other than our band for distribution. Interestingly enough, Al Brockman of TRO told us, you must leave room for the producer to make you sound better. He was dumbing down the mix to hook the producer!
BenRebel	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 1:20 PM mracky I have seen that happen alot but hehehe that also falls under kickbacks and the magic use of the year end budget (shelfing) and alot of other trick plays
Apertome	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 2:07 PM Arthen -- here's something you can try to make synths sound wider (at least I imagine you can, I'm not familiar with the Triton). Look at the routing options for the Triton. Sometimes you can pan the different oscillators or filters to their own channels. I like to treat these as separate mono channels, and then you can pan different "parts" of the sound to different spatial locations and increase the sense of depth and width. Then you can do things like having a short attack on one sound and a longer attack on the other, in essence the note will pan from one side to the other. You can automate this stuff, use the LFOs to help control panning ... hell, some synths let you modulate the mix between the oscillators. Maybe this stuff is obvious ... if not, it's time to get down and dirty with that synth Also, you might want to mess around with some phasing techniques, it's more of an art than a science, at least to me.
Veracohr	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 5:13 PM Arthen, is it not wide enough just on your monitor setup, or everywhere?
Veracohr	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 5:15 PM Oh, and I don't know what argument I was talking about. It just seemed as though you two were arguing about something, the subject of which seemed completely invisible to me.
starseven	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 6:53 PM this subject seems a bit odd.. it;s hard to say what is "profesional" verses demo/......the industry is undergoign MAJOR change right now.. and large format studios are very quickly becomeing a thign of the past.. how is the large studio onwer.. with the ssl.. goign to compete with the kid down the corner running a g4 and an mbox.. who is charging $50.00 an hour less.....most home DAW systems can go up to 96K these days....and with emphesis slowly changing to having a hit, as opsed to a full album....the word demo doesnt really aply to the production value anymore.. and the word "profesional" is becoming more and more undefined...... anyways rik mr "industry pro" here to teach all us uneducated indies... GET THE FUCK OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE!!... you dont know who coems to these forums.. you dont always know who you are talking to.. so it;s best not to asume.....judging by the way you attack peopel who disagree with you.. and of course who can forget the Mafoia thread... i woudl asume you are bitter old engineer.. who could never make it as an artists.. and probably cant even hear above 10K anmore ... times are chaning.. get with it.. or get left behind
Jennae	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:04 PM can we please have a truce between you two... it's gone on long enough and is leaving a bad taste in my mouth now kiss and make up celebrate diversity
starseven	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:10 PM yeah.. i'm done... but i am still confused.... 1st... what rik's problem is with me.. and 2nd... "long enough"?... i just waas made aware that their even was a problem.. oh well....on to more important things.. like music....=)
BenRebel	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:16 PM S7 and Robin behind a tree k-i-ss-ing hehehhee lets lighten this room up a bit ...
Jennae	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:24 PM agreed!!!!! first comes love.... then comes marriage
robin101	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:27 PM Now thats funny.
Jennae	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:29 PM what I want to know is who is going to wear the dress on the wedding day can I recommend Rick
Jennae	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:32 PM ...cause we definitely know who wears the pants
robin101	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:34 PM Answer: "Jennae".
starseven	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:35 PM i think i should get to wear the dress.. i have better make-up =)
BenRebel	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:43 PM Professional vs Demo why look at that as a negative why not look at it as a goal Star7 is right about one thing the Industry is changing.. and we can make a big diffrence in it.. ok how about thinking of this forum as Professional vs unfinished or pre-production the piont you can't be be so thin skinned playing against the majors if you want to play on there field and the diffrence in the productions should not have to exist if we step our production game up.. I know I want my tracks to sound tighter and I'm willing to pickup any tips that will help that..." id="74924">I want to clear up what "MY" my mind thinks I'm in this forum for and what i think the "producers Forum" is there for "I believe its for the songwriters artists producers or any combination of the three that want to better there production .... also Professional vs Demo why look at that as a negative why not look at it as a goal Star7 is right about one thing the Industry is changing.. and we can make a big diffrence in it.. ok how about thinking of this forum as Professional vs unfinished or pre-production the piont you can't be be so thin skinned playing against the majors if you want to play on there field and the diffrence in the productions should not have to exist if we step our production game up.. I know I want my tracks to sound tighter and I'm willing to pickup any tips that will help that...
starseven	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:46 PM not to have a shameless plug of my music.. but i do al lmy music on my home studio.... which suits my needs just fine... and i think it sounds on the samelevel as a lot of themusic out there in the mainstream industry... mind you i am talking about the produciton quiality.. hehe... i dunno.. let me know what you think.. it;s really hard for me to judge myself. S7
leflaw	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:47 PM I play violin. You have to LISTEN real close to play violin. You have to listen real close to mix or master as well. Its really all about listening. Why does one bass guitar sound "even" over a two octave range and another sounds peasky? Why does one reverb sound good and another bad? What is too much stereo spread? Use your ears. Best acoustic device available.
sepidman	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:48 PM Robin might appreciate this. My "BASEMENT DEMOS" are done on a 4 track recorder and the final sessions are recorded using use 2" tape giving us 24 track analog. All of the songs on my dmusic site are recorded this way. As for compression, one complaint I hear from Hillcrest Records all the time is that the artists who are sending him material for distribution to radio seem to now be compressing the hell out of the song so that when re-mastering for radio there is very little headroom to work with. It would seem that the overall airiness and quality of the final mix is being made to suffer for the shear sake of volumne. The second biggest complaint he has is the lack of stereo spread on the tracks. Things are getting muddled in the middle. Brian
BenRebel	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 7:59 PM Sepidman I have been saying this for a long time...
sepidman	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 8:11 PM yes, i read that. and it is 100% true. Ross deals strictly with country music and that is now a major complaint. When he gets the masters from the various artists he takes them to Martial Arts studios where they are remastered for radio. And increasinly the artists are sending a product that has no room for the engineer to work with. The msuci is so compressed for volume that he has had to reject several for quality reasons. And that is not good for the artist trying to make a lving from his/her copyright. For the time being wether we like it or not we still need the commercial radio thingy to make a living. So guys, don't kill the song and the music for volume. Let the music be heard the way it was meant to be heard. B
woodhead	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 8:30 PM So guys, don't kill the song and the music for volume. Let the music be heard the way it was meant to be heard. good point, I have mentioned this before in this thread, compression should be used for control not volume or atleast in my opinon, but you know what they say about opinions. And thanx for the heads up on the radio thing sepidman something I will have to pay attention to.
sepidman	Date: December 19, 2003 @ 8:51 PM not a problem. each time hillcrest gets set to release i get to hear from Ross and the complaints d'jour.
woodhead	Date: December 20, 2003 @ 2:32 AM ok I was doing some mixing, and I always go to zero,I also go to zero when I am doing my master thing , dont quite got a hold if this yet but is zero right, or do I need to go less?
Arthen	Date: December 20, 2003 @ 6:44 AM Verachor...it's not really enough everywhere. everytime i listen to it on any system, it still feels like a whole huge ball of mono samples playing together right in the middle with the edge ends of both speakers not being made used of...kinda ticks me off like hell
Arthen	Date: December 20, 2003 @ 11:08 AM Well not really a huge ball of mono samples...i mean the mixes are good, is just that when i listen to them on any 2 speakers (or to tell even more clearly, headphones), they're all like sort of playing more in the center area between your ears. That's like the maximum range I could strive for currently. What I want is to be able to widen this range and reach the edges of your ears. And I mean literally extreme left and right. Don't get me wrong; I'm not a stereo freak. And i know it's all in the hearing and listening blah blah to get results that you want, but in this case I'm really maxed out.
sepidman	Date: December 20, 2003 @ 1:28 PM I like a good stereo spread on our mixes. We record analog 24 track usually, unless we are doing a quick writer demo then it is 4 track. Even on that though we make sure we have a good spread and leave lots of headroom. But like I have always said, do the best you can with what you have and when submitting material to anyone for consideration....same thing. Be as professional as you can afford to be. B
robin101	Date: December 20, 2003 @ 3:06 PM I don't know how I'd managed to create a complicated situation earliar, but this thread is what I was hoping it would turn out to be. By the way, I've apologized to starseven. We've communicated. I suppose the wedding plans are back on now Jennae.
Jennae	Date: December 20, 2003 @ 5:14 PM can I be the girl????
pog	Date: December 20, 2003 @ 5:29 PM You can use plugins and/or panning to make stereo effects, but I think understanding that bass sounds (lower frequencies) tend to travel more in a room, so if you panned the bass to one side only, for example, the bass would still carry around the whole room. It's much easier to create stereo depth with mid-range, and treble sounds. (recently, I've been experimenting at great length,the phenomenon of stereo bass sounds, and it's really quite complex in places... some of the prototype ideas have been amazing sounding, yet difficult to emulate) hope this helps
BenRebel	Date: December 20, 2003 @ 6:17 PM Hey Pog if you Pan a Bass sound to one side wouldn’t you be causing more problems with your Kick (which are normally in the center) which leaves the rest of your sounds and if you no not have other heavy sounds (toms and other percussions) there is also a balance to maintain also you can control stereo basses on the basic level 1) control the spread of the stereo effect or shifting the "effect to one side" 2) the hard panning containing it to 9 and 3 o clock which may feel more natural than a hard left and right and good use of EQ is also a good tool in giving a sound dept and balance in a mix
Jesuszilla	Date: December 20, 2003 @ 6:51 PM I know barely anything about production, I just try to make stuff not sound like farting, that'll do me.

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