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Good microphone for a 4-track?

SimonWaldram	Date: September 10, 2006 @ 8:03 AM I've given up recording through computers. I thought I'd got some decent equipment with an Omega recording kit and a Rode mic, but the sound quality just isn't good enough and feel of the recordings just isn't right for my music...plus my laptop is fucked beyond repair So I have a Zoom MRS-4B 4-track recorder and I want to start making music with it. Can anyone recommend me a good microphone? I'm looking something with quite a warm and clear sound to it. Anyone got any suggestions?
evansorchid	Date: September 10, 2006 @ 8:53 AM Sorry to hear about your computer woes. A few folks have told me that my four-track recordings have a warm intimate sound. I believe that it comes from the 'pleasing distortion' that some 4-track units have inherently, not necessarily from the microphone. But, when I was using my 4-track I was using an Audio-Technica Dynamic microphone to record any vocals and acoustic guitar. I seem to remember that I could plug directly into the 4-track without any preamp. Hope that helps.
zedsalt	Date: September 10, 2006 @ 11:17 AM This is one of those instances where you can't beat a good old fashioned brick and mortar music store. You might have to hit several of them in order to try out a variety of mics, but it really is the only way.
SimonWaldram	Date: September 10, 2006 @ 11:28 AM Thanks for that guys. Spike, I'll take a look at a Audio-Technica I'd never actually given a pre-amp any though. I just kind of assumed that the mic goes into the 4-track and that's it. Even if it could be plugged straight in would I be better off getting a preamp anyway?
kyle-92	Date: September 10, 2006 @ 11:38 AM get you a $50.00 shure mic they kick ass and they don't break easy maybe the cord will
leedsquietman	Date: September 10, 2006 @ 11:57 AM 4 tracks (well Tascam and Fostec ones I used previously) do have preamps built in and they are usually not too bad, although they don't give the amount of gain that a specialized pre-amp might but unless you're planning on doing a lot of 'ambient micing' (i.e. like Led Zeppelin on 'When The Levee Breaks' with mics spaced several feet back from the sound source to record room dynamics) then it should be fine. Any dynamic mic from a reputable manufacturer such as Shure, AKG, Bayer, Audio technica etc should suffice but like Zed said, you need to road test a few in a music store to find one you really like. Sorry about your woes with computer recording, it just goes to show you that one man's dirt is another man's gold, the Rode mic is getting rave reviews and the Lexicon Omega has been used to good effect by several artists here but it can be difficult to get a good setup for recording on computers (esp. Windows as Mac has specific drivers, specific hardware) with all those hardware conflicts and tweaking. Plus what they say on the box about minimum requirements is bull, you need a very powerful computer with lots of memory to run the latest software (as computers get faster, the programs add more features that eats into the benefit of faster computers). This is why some people are still running Cubase VST or Sonar 2 etc.
leedsquietman	Date: September 10, 2006 @ 12:18 PM With digital 4 track recorders you won't get that 'warm' sound offered by older tape analog machines - but you will get less hiss and noise issues if you record properly. Simon, did you get an extra SD card, the Zoom only comes with 32 MB built in, which is not much if you want to run it highest resolution mode, my friend has a Fostex MR8 and he had to run things in 'long' mode which reduces sampling frequency from 44 to 32 Khz - not too noticeable on some things, but for acoustic guitar you will lose some brightness recording at 32 Khz. You should look to get at least a 128 MB and pref a 256 or more SD card if poss.
hueseph	Date: September 11, 2006 @ 2:02 AM Wha happen to your laptop? If I were you I'd seriously look into getting it working again. You're really missing out on a lot of great editing tools. Either that or sell me yoour omega....
Opossum	Date: September 11, 2006 @ 3:10 AM Yeah, there's an old "rule" about software. If it's brand new software, it will be at least a year or so before a computer would be made that would able to run it well.
leedsquietman	Date: September 11, 2006 @ 3:56 AM I think it's possible to export tracks as .wavs, so you could import them into a program like Audacity and mix or edit them for there. Still agree with Hue though, it takes a bit of time and fiddling around to get a good setup working. But once you have it up and running, you'll never look back, I have been running Cubase SE and now Cubase SX3 for a while and had issues getting both of them to work but now they are running sweet !
hueseph	Date: September 11, 2006 @ 4:10 AM ..aaaaAAAARGH! Cubase! I'm so jealous. I hear October is the time. Only a month away.
leedsquietman	Date: September 11, 2006 @ 5:17 AM yup, the new Cubase 4 system is looking pretty sweet !
SimonWaldram	Date: September 12, 2006 @ 1:09 PM Hueseph, We're not sure what wrong with my laptop at the moment, But it might not be fixable. I don't understand I couldn't get properly high quality recordings from my equipment. I guess it was the soundcard. I'm going to keep my Omega and Rode and maybe use them in the future but use my 4-track for the time being. LQM, thanks for advice on SD cards. That's another thing I hadn't take into consideration. Can somebody recommend me a good preamp for my 4-track please?
Rodrica	Date: September 13, 2006 @ 5:25 AM I'm testing some pre-amps at the moment. If anything seems worthwhile I'll let you know. So far the Behringer is out...they still produce cheap, nasty gear. Not very impressed by the ART and the high end stuff doesn't really seem to produce a significant difference for the extra bucks...but I'm still testing. Regarding mics...many ppl don't like using them in the studio...but if you are looking for a solid adaptable reasonably priced mic with a good even sound, I'd go for the Shure 58 (it's a dynamic type). Had one for years and nothing so far has beaten it. Other mics tend to sound thin or too transparent or just plain awful. With a dynamics mic you don't have to worry about peripheral studio noises and you don't have to go to the expense of a noise gate etc. You will need a pre-amp for digital recording though (not the mic's fault, but the problem with digital recording). The Shure is pretty dependable and consistent, so if you use mic technique (i.e. dipping it down for more bass, pulling it away to prevent pop or distortion etc) it will save you a lot of fiddling around with the mixing later down the line.
Opossum	Date: September 13, 2006 @ 5:43 AM Philips SBCMD150 is one of my newest, here. Yeah...shoot me now.
SimonWaldram	Date: December 28, 2006 @ 12:31 PM I need to ask you guys this: If I was to get a Fostex VF80EX 8-track recorder - one of these... http://www.nusystems.co.uk/product/Fostex.VF80.EX How could I transfer the recordings onto a computer?
Tallisman	Date: December 28, 2006 @ 1:44 PM On 28th Dec 2008, SimonWaldram said: I need to ask you guys this: If I was to get a Fostex VF80EX 8-track recorder - one of these... http://www.nusystems.co.uk/product/Fostex.VF80.EX How could I transfer the recordings onto a computer? With extreme difficulty and a ton of frustration! Beware: 1. there is no mention of a usb feature, so no direct connect to the computer. 2. the cd burner is optional thus more loot before you can burn clips to cd for export to computer. you would be way better off just jumping into something like this: http://www.nusystems.co.uk/product/Digidesign.Mbox.2 cheers, -Tallis
leedsquietman	Date: December 28, 2006 @ 1:53 PM http://www.fostex.com/support/pdf/fostex/vf80ex/vf80ex_owners_manual.pdf This is the manual. From what I can tell, you either need to do an analog mixdown and take the signals from the line out into your soundcard inputs (you could export individual tracks or a stereo mixdown and open them up and edit in any audio editing/recording program such as Audacity, Protools, Sonar, Cubase etc - (may need lining up manually nudging tracks as required if you export each track individually). Alternatively, if your soundcard supports SP/DIF (some do, some don't) you can export the audio on tracks 7 and 8 digitally using the SP/DIF and the mixer software in your soundcard. Typically with these machines, tracks 7 and 8 are the stereo output for mixing/mastering so you must bounce anything recorded on 7 and 8 to another track when it comes to doing a stereo mixdown. The CD/R version of this machine requires that you mix down the stereo mix file from tracks 7 and 8. Tascam and other machines operate on the same premise, so there isn't really 8 working tracks available, there are 6 tracks plus 2 for mixdown. Bouncing and layering sounds is a lot easier and loses a lot less quality than doing so on analog multitracks, so at least that's a positive. I have seen other digital multitracks that have a USB port for outputting a .wav file but this machine does not offer that.
leedsquietman	Date: December 28, 2006 @ 2:02 PM I personally agree with T but a hardware recorder has it's uses. The Tascam DP01 is a similar 8 track recorder that does include a USB 2.0 port for backing up data and exporting .wav Both tha Tascam and Fostex machines only allow 16 bit recording, which is CD quality but has a lot less headroom and margin for errors plus slighlty less resolution than 24 bit recording offered by most software and some HD recorders such as ADAT or the Tascam 2444 etc.
leedsquietman	Date: December 28, 2006 @ 2:04 PM The Tascam DP01 is available for 229 pounds from that nusystems.co.uk and the DP01FX with inbuilt FX is 275 btw
GeneHilbert	Date: December 28, 2006 @ 2:22 PM I personally would never buy anything Fostex designs or sells. If it was given to me I would sell it as fast as I could find a buyer. I have always found them cheaply made products. I’m very surprised they are even still in business. I haven't used an ADAT for years, but the old ones were prone to have carriage and head alignment problems. I would still be very wary of them. If you want a stand alone hard disk recorder, my vote would be for a Tascam or Roland. And "Yes" make sure you have the ability to transfer to and from the computer. Roland manuals are a pain in the ass but I have a lot of their equipment and I have never had a problem with the quality of their gear.
Tallisman	Date: December 28, 2006 @ 3:50 PM the yamaha machines are also quite good, but for the $$ need for any of these machines, you could have a far better computer based DAW. Also, check L&M (if in canada) or your local music shop... many of these come in used as the previous owners opt for much more powerful computer based setups.
leedsquietman	Date: December 28, 2006 @ 4:09 PM I have used analog multitrack machines by Yamaha, Tascam and Fostex and had an R8 reel to reel recorder by Fostex. I agree that the Yam and Tascam portastudios were better made as the cheap little pan switches used to always fall off my Fostex X-26, but the R8 was a solid reel to reel recorder by Fostex. I think you should look up reviews and stuff like epinions.com etc to see where the general consensus lies before buying Fostex stuff. Also check reviews on stuff like zzounds.com or sweetwater.com etc.
SimonWaldram	Date: December 28, 2006 @ 6:33 PM Thanks very much for help guys, It means a lot to me that you're always willing to offer help and advice LQM, believe me I really have been looking up reviews and trying to weigh things up. I'd already seen the Tascam DP01FXCD and I like the sound of it. The only worries I have about it are - according to what I've read at soundonsound.com - no decent compressor for condenser mics, poor metering and limited effects features. I've been looking at the Tascam 2488 too but at £730 it would really be stretching my budget - and also I don't think 24 tracks would be neccesary given how straight-forward a lot of my music is. It looks pretty impressive, though: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may04/articles/tascam2488.htm
leedsquietman	Date: December 28, 2006 @ 8:44 PM Well, you're probably right Simon, but frankly any mixer or portastudio under 500 notes will probably have pretty bitty and useless effects maybe with one or two exceptions. Really, the M-Box will give you a goodish user interface with reasonable preamps and Protools LE has some reasonable plug-ins for compression and reverbs. The only problem then is having a reasonable computer to run it !
Tallisman	Date: December 28, 2006 @ 9:37 PM the m-audio firewire 410 is reasonably priced. and with that you'll get better latency than the USB Mbox. Furthermore the asio drivers are better such that you could run any DAW ya like. It really is the stronger way to go.
leedsquietman	Date: December 28, 2006 @ 11:53 PM yes, USB lags a couple of milliseconds behind firewire which lags a couple of ms behind a PCI-E card. Is PTLE available with the firewire 410 T ?
Tallisman	Date: December 29, 2006 @ 12:28 AM Not LE, but pro tools m-powered which, AFAIK is identical less some post production features - namely video playback. But for straight-p music, on par and 100% compatible back and forth with LE and HD systems (tdm plugins aside).
Alleon	Date: December 29, 2006 @ 10:17 AM We use to own a Foxtex 4 track recorder and only got about 3 years use out of it before we started getting problems. Then we bought a Tascam. We've had it for 6 years now and it's still working fine. The next multi track recorder we are getting will be a Tascam also. We are loooking a two different ones right now. One is an 8 track recorder with 40 gig hard-drive plus effects at about $800.00 and the other is a little cheaper at $600.00 with no cd burner. The one we are using now is good but transferring the music to the computer is a pain in the butt. LOL We have to plug into the soundcard. It works but it sure would be easier with the newer models with usb ports. Noella
zedsalt	Date: December 29, 2006 @ 10:52 AM I'm told that the problem, usually, with Fostex cassette 4s is a power conditioning chip. It's a less-than-$100 chip with...I can't remember if it's sixteen pins total, or sixteen on a side...so, it'd be a user-serviceable problem, were it not for the fact that they made the recorders ridiculously difficult to open up to the point where one can reach the chip! I know this isn't of any great help to anyone. I just wanted to "vent", and I appreciate the opportunity.
SimonWaldram	Date: December 30, 2006 @ 7:19 AM Given what I've read I'm really glad I haven't gone with a Fostex now. I'm going to go with a Tascam 2488 then. M-Audio Firewire 410 may be good but personally I'm done with recording with computers. One more question, guys: you can use condenser mics with the Tascam 2488 but it doesn't have a decent compressor for them (apparently). Would there be another type of mic I'd therefore be better off using?
zedsalt	Date: December 30, 2006 @ 10:43 AM A preamp would solve the problem. Another concern might be whether or not the 2488 has phantom power. A lot of singers have various dynamic mics that they prefer over condensers. My voice is right at that line, pitchwise, where sometimes, on some songs, a condenser mic is best and on others, a dynamic sounds better.
Tallisman	Date: December 30, 2006 @ 10:46 AM 2488 has phantome power to the best of my knowledge. are you certain you want to compress on the way in, as opposed to during the mixdown in context with the resto of the material?
Alleon	Date: December 30, 2006 @ 10:59 AM Hi Guys This is Claude I have the Tascam 4 track recorder, and YES its a pain in the butt. When the song is done, I connect the cable to Auxilary output jack, and then i have to connect to MIC IN on the Onboard Sound, BUTTTT, believe it or not lol, I have to stick the stupid adapter half way out for the sound of the Tascam 4 track to enter into the computer. Then i use Audacity Multitrack to do some final touch. Best bet is to use a Digital Recorder USB Output, I'm sure that will solve the problem. Take care Claude
SimonWaldram	Date: December 30, 2006 @ 3:26 PM On 30th Dec 2008, zedsalt said: A preamp would solve the problem. Another concern might be whether or not the 2488 has phantom power. A lot of singers have various dynamic mics that they prefer over condensers. My voice is right at that line, pitchwise, where sometimes, on some songs, a condenser mic is best and on others, a dynamic sounds better. On 30th Dec 2008, Tallisman said: 2488 has phantom power to the best of my knowledge. are you certain you want to compress on the way in, as opposed to during the mixdown in context with the resto of the material? So, if I was to use a dynamic mic, would a pre-amp then not be neccesary? I'd rather not have one as I really want to keep things as simple as possible. My music is not the type that requires a whole lot of fancy technology, I just want some good recordings of my songs and the means to mix and add a few effects to them.
Tallisman	Date: December 30, 2006 @ 3:31 PM Pre amps (good ones) always make the signal sound better. If the 2488 provides phantom power (which I think it does) then it also has mic pres built in sou you could use a dynamic or a condensor mic. You may be able to configure it's built in effect to insert the compression algorithm into the signal path thereby printing a compressed mic signal.
SimonWaldram	Date: December 30, 2006 @ 4:12 PM Thanks, T. What I really want to know, though, is whether a preamp would be more necessary when using a condensor mic than a dynamic mic.
leedsquietman	Date: December 30, 2006 @ 11:39 PM Look out for sales on that 2488 Simon if that's your chosen path - this is the time for bargains to be had and in the USA/Canada plenty of major chains are selling it way reduced right now, for around 475 dollars US even which is significantly less than 700 quid sterling.
leedsquietman	Date: December 30, 2006 @ 11:43 PM yeah, according to Yahoo's currency converter that is around 250 UK pounds ! Pity there aren't many music shop chains or big internet sellers in the UK like Guitar Centre, Sweetwater and ZZounds etc, the lack of competition means you pay more dough.
zedsalt	Date: December 31, 2006 @ 10:37 AM A preamp wouldn't necessarily be more important for dynamic or condenser, but preamps often have sources for phantom power built in, and dynamic mics don't require phantom power. I have a small-diaphragm condenser that runs off of one AA battery in the handle. I've heard people say they like the sound with phantom power better; I've heard others say the battery makes for less line noise. Personally, I've never noticed a difference.