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Maybe I'm Missing Something

Woof	Date: July 13, 2006 @ 8:28 PM Hello All. While I'll have to admit to being relieved that a certain ex-member of this community is no longer lurking in our hallowed halls, I am rather perplexed as to why Kingo's thread, titled: "Interloper, 2x(16-12)" has been locked from further posting. It's not as though the quotes contained in the thread were included out of malicious intent. I'm reasonably certain that approval was elicited to post them by the original author, or at the very least, implied, as Kingo was perceived by said party as "A Friend". There's a difference between the original comments taken in context, and offering certain snippets of our history in a spirit of retrospect, just as there's a difference in Diane Arbus taking a photograph of certain subjects as a document, and holding the actual subjects up for ridicule. I believe what Kingo did was art, and documentation, and a bit of editorializing which, in my opinion, ought to be allowed. That said, maybe I'm missing something. If anyone could help me to understand other viewpoints that might conflict with what I've written, I would be grateful. Thank You.
desiderata	Date: July 13, 2006 @ 8:45 PM Ditto.
K3VIN	Date: July 13, 2006 @ 8:45 PM yea you cant censor everything... tis not like it really was a big deal to have a few conversations from him.
hantu	Date: July 13, 2006 @ 8:52 PM lol can't keep us happy
Woof	Date: July 13, 2006 @ 9:03 PM K3: Yeah it really was a big deal Desi: Thanks. Sham: What does "happy" mean? Is that, like... an emotion or somethin
imemine	Date: July 13, 2006 @ 10:55 PM Big Brother wears orange!
hantu	Date: July 13, 2006 @ 11:04 PM you mean This dude??
ShadowMom	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 12:31 AM He means all of us. And I never wear orange... it conflicts with my alien green skin and darkbolt heart...
desiderata	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 12:52 AM So I take it that was the official explanation of why Kingo's thread -- a thread created by a user in good standing and an active musician and community member -- was deleted? Woof wrote a legitimate, polite, professional thread asking a question. Where is the legitmate, polite, professional answer?
ShadowMom	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 2:42 AM Official explanation? I thought I was making a joke...
ChillinBuzz	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 2:48 AM surprise... for the thread locking AND the following complaints. 1. I do not see why I was banned. I should not be confused with aj, aj2, 538, or any of the previous aliases. shame on you for bringing this back up, Kingo. you really are a work of art... you only raised this just to cause trouble because you know he was banned this time for a series of insults and threats TO STAFF INCLUDED, which seems to be ok in your book. so very sad. FINE if you want to go on about deleted and blocked threads but STOP WHINING ABOUT HIM GETTING BANNED FOR HIS ACTIONS. I mean, if you narrow minded minority really are that upset he got banned because he threatened physical violence on an admin, maybe there's something seriously wrong with you staying here too. what Kingo did was not art, again you can see people complaining about a part of what was said being stopped when you are choosing to ignore the real reasons behind all of it, just so you can moan about the staff wielding "power" and "control" and god knows what else im keeping the trouble down. hello? that's their job!
ChillinBuzz	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 2:52 AM in keeping the trouble down. The AJ Fan Club
Cryxan	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:59 AM Ok folks, here's the deal. Fist off, thesoloer, AJPerensky, AJ2, and 538, all of which originated from the same IP, was removed from the site for being disruptive. Our Terms of Service make it very clear that DMusic can close accounts at its discretion. We don't ban many people, but sometimes it's a necessity. After AJ was banned, he came back under a different name and continued interacting. This became the center of a big discussion in the admin forums. We decided that this sort of thing will not happen again. Once someone is banned, that's it. Since he already was back and interacting again, we started fresh and gave him new (numerous) warnings when they were called for, but eventually had to ban him once more. There will be no more second chances. Regarding kingo's threads. Kingo was reposting messages from AJ, who is no longer allowed in these forums. After that thread was locked, another like it was created, and I just deleted it. Lamenting AJ's banning will one, spread the flames and cause more unrest, and two, be pointless because he is not allowed back. This is not about censorship, it is about maintaining quality and keeping a semblance of order in the forum and in the community. We most definitely don't need multiple threads on this topic. The bottom line is that DMusic is tired of AJ being a disruption, both himself and by proxy. I hope I've addressed everyone's questions and concerns. I'm sorry that some people are upset over DM's actions in this matter, but it had to be done. I'm quite sure that there are many more members who are happy about AJ's removal than there are members who aren't. Now please, let's move on.
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 7:45 AM Whatever... but you can't close/lock threads eventhough they would have AJ/thesoloer dude's quotes. As far I know, it isn't against the forum rules to post quotes...? it is about maintaining quality and keeping a semblance of order in the forum and in the community This forum is already full of crap and if you wanted to keep order and "quality" you should close 80% of the threads.
Svensta	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:00 AM Thank you Cryxie for posting before I could get here. Posting by proxy for someone whose banned? No. Posting a 'retrospect' for an unseemly event that JUST occured and was only an event in terms of upsetting the flow and happiness of the community? No. GreatGoogly, since you are so angry about the quality of the forum here, feel free to leave and find some other forum more to your level of tastes. Banned people are gone. Period.
kingo	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:23 AM "Kingo. you really are a work of art... you only raised this just to cause trouble because you know he was banned this time for a series of insults and threats TO STAFF INCLUDED, which seems to be ok in your book." Thanks, I'll take that as the compliment that it was surely intended to be, just like all that clever stuff you wrote in your journal back when I tried to get people to stop fucking with Jacob so this wouldn't happen. But here's the thing: I don't know that he was banned for a series of insults and threats. How the fuck would I know that? Because someone said so? That same someone certainly didn't make it very clear what it was Jacob was being asked to stop doing. I'll assume those "insults and threats" happened after he was warned to stop posting stuff in the forums by some of the admins who've made no secret anywhere about their disdain for him. To this day Jacob has not insulted or threatened me. However I've been treated like shit by a lot of people here, including admins, for trying to point out a little of the hypocrisy in acting like insults and threats are okay if directed at someone who most of the community dislikes, but they're bannable offenses if directed at some of the bright and shining lights here. Back then I asked if maybe we could have a way to make public the reasons for IP blockings and account banning. I was told how ridiculous that would be because of how many of these have to happen. Now you're saying "we don't ban many people." So which is it? I respect and appreciate the work admins do here. For a long time I loved this place. But if offering a little criticism, suggestion, and argument is enough to warrant thread lockings, deletions, and veiled threats from admins, then this place isn't what I thought it was. I had an inkling of this back when this started; it looked to me from the outside like the real reason Jacob was treated like he was was that some admins had a personal problem with him. Instead of jumping to that kind of accusation I asked for transparency. Instead I got to witness the same shit happening all over again, and now I get to start seeing it first-hand. One more thing for Buzz: "maybe there's something seriously wrong with you staying here too." Yes, maybe there is. So go ahead and ban me. :alien:* " id="233988">Cryxan -- because you've effing deleted it already there's no way to prove this, but the thread you deleted contained ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRITTEN BY JACOB. Not a thing. Furthermore, it didn't violate any rules. Why did I post it? Because I don't like the arbitrary nature of some of the decisions around here, and I asked, months ago, before this horrible person was re-injected into the community to ruin all of your lives, if we could maybe have a little transparency here in how we handle people who SOME of us think are a "disruption." Of course that was ignored. Additionally, I was told that AJ was banned for doing many horrible things which nobody could substantiate because everything was removed. So he came back and I WATCHED, and I saw what happened. So I created a thread quoting some of the things that Jacob has said that made me enjoy reading what he writes. And it was arbitrarily locked. I was asked by an admin to stop relaying his messages, which I wasn't actually doing. But I didn't argue the point, I instead started my own thread with my own words and you deleted it. Here's the thing -- when you treat people like shit they might say things back to you that you don't like. Buzz: "Kingo. you really are a work of art... you only raised this just to cause trouble because you know he was banned this time for a series of insults and threats TO STAFF INCLUDED, which seems to be ok in your book." Thanks, I'll take that as the compliment that it was surely intended to be, just like all that clever stuff you wrote in your journal back when I tried to get people to stop fucking with Jacob so this wouldn't happen. But here's the thing: I don't know that he was banned for a series of insults and threats. How the fuck would I know that? Because someone said so? That same someone certainly didn't make it very clear what it was Jacob was being asked to stop doing. I'll assume those "insults and threats" happened after he was warned to stop posting stuff in the forums by some of the admins who've made no secret anywhere about their disdain for him. To this day Jacob has not insulted or threatened me. However I've been treated like shit by a lot of people here, including admins, for trying to point out a little of the hypocrisy in acting like insults and threats are okay if directed at someone who most of the community dislikes, but they're bannable offenses if directed at some of the bright and shining lights here. Back then I asked if maybe we could have a way to make public the reasons for IP blockings and account banning. I was told how ridiculous that would be because of how many of these have to happen. Now you're saying "we don't ban many people." So which is it? I respect and appreciate the work admins do here. For a long time I loved this place. But if offering a little criticism, suggestion, and argument is enough to warrant thread lockings, deletions, and veiled threats from admins, then this place isn't what I thought it was. I had an inkling of this back when this started; it looked to me from the outside like the real reason Jacob was treated like he was was that some admins had a personal problem with him. Instead of jumping to that kind of accusation I asked for transparency. Instead I got to witness the same shit happening all over again, and now I get to start seeing it first-hand. One more thing for Buzz: "maybe there's something seriously wrong with you staying here too." Yes, maybe there is. So go ahead and ban me. *
GreatGooglyM...	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:28 AM GreatGoogly, since you are so angry about the quality of the forum here, feel free to leave and find some other forum more to your level of tastes.
imemine	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:40 AM …..and the saga continues---lines are being drawn----sides are being taken. Who will be the last one sitting on the bench as the chronicles of AJ continue? This by far outweighs Korea testing missiles, Israel and Palestine and the war in Iraq----High gas prices, unemployment and a massive and growing national debt-----I think it’s all Kingo and Cryxan’s effort to wag the dog!
Israfel	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:51 AM Count me among the "narrow minded minority". I will never understand this. I've tried and really tried to hear what all sides were saying. It is not understandable to me. Perhaps I don't have the inside scoop, and am not privy to details but as a mere observer (and once in a while participant) I can honestly say that I have never seen anything at anytime get so completely hogwashed and blown out of proportion as this. There are so many angles and twists and opinions and truths and half truths and ire and irksomes that it's impossible to tell what is what anymore. And all over something that could have very, very easily been dealt with if any one person here had heeded what the professionals tell you to do if someone "trolls" the forums....ignore. I'm not saying that the person in mention was a troll, but some think he was, yet no one could just ignore. Amazing. So, call me a whiner and complainer. Whatever. It's just a sorry, sad affair any way you look at it.
jack	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 9:07 AM First: If you have a complaint, you should take it up privately with an admin. It should also be worded in clear English so we recognize it as a complaint. Secondly: There is not an administrative log that is publicily viewable because it simply is not practical. I understand you angry over this whole ordeal, but I ask you to try and see things from an administrative perspective here. Anyone who breaks the rules will be warned, warned again and then suspended. We're actually pretty leanient as far as this goes, which is both and good and a bad thing, but when we ban someone, we have good reason to do so and it's definitely not out of personal indifferences or because someone has a grudge -- in fact, I believe the admin that did ban thesoloer had several "normal" discussions. Jacob broke several terms of the TOS just by avoiding his ban, but we let him back for a second chance. He knew he was under close observation, as anyone would be if they avoided several suspensions. He also publicily made fun of DMusic, the admins and its members in several of his posts - again, that's something we allow in Battle threads but not anywhere else. He threatened legal action against DMusic--I think this was more of a case of him provoking the community than the community provoking him. And finally, he insulted several administrators directly, including in responses to the several times he was warned to stop.
desiderata	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 9:17 AM Jack, I appreciate your response. And I agree that it was ridiculous to let someone back and then ban 90 percent of what they did once allowed back. If admins had stuck with their initial decision, this wouldn't be a problem. On the now missing thread, I posted some stuff that I copied from a journal of mine. You know, some artsy, poety crap. And there were some very pretty things written by Kingo, fanch-t, etc. The writing was all ours, not AJs. Why was that a threat? P.S. It also sucks to have admins telling people to find other forums to use just because they happen to disagree over something. It seems to me I read somewhere that DMusic is a community and discussion is its life blood ...
GeneHilbert	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 9:28 AM Well then....... anyone for pie & chips.....?
fanch-t	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 9:54 AM Hey kids, always back up your spur of the moment type nonsensical poetical type things because you never know when. Forget it, I'm finishing the rest of this thought on paper.
sinai	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 10:44 AM i could give a shit either way really, my balls itch, and thats a far more pressing issue for me at the moment, but upon alleviating that, i may care about aj... but prolly not.
madhog	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 1:06 PM Maybe we can bring this whole thing full circle - would anyone be banning anything if this entire situation had taken place through songs? The slippery slope analogy is used too often, but this is probably a good time to invoke it. What makes DMusic so cool is the diversity of independent artists - and the forums provide a nice place for those folks to interact. I think it's counterproductive to restrict speech in arbitrary ways. The thinly veiled threats about "find your own place" and other similar BS is revealing. I still don't understand why people take this kind of nonsense so personally. Buzz - it seems like you are especially pissed about Kingo "defending" AJ. Why? What happened to talking about things like a reasonable adult?
evansorchid	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 3:00 PM Does anybody remember laughter?
TameasDust	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 3:02 PM um yah
BOWILLIE	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 3:21 PM ..come on people now.. smile on your brother everybody get together try to love one another right now.....
LostYears	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:08 PM yeah what ever happened to the days of lighthearted forum posting... i talked with thesoloer (aka AJ AJ2 etc.) and one of the reasons that i gave him for why he should cut back on his useless forum posts was that this was a site where people came to escape real life and have a good time... i remember a while back when i was a newbie Gene told me that this site was full of musicians who like to smart asses because it was more fun to be lighthearted (this is paraphrased based on my memory of the event but i think it is close to accurate, at least in the meaning) and now it seems that all the forums have to do with errors upon the admin's part or racism and everyone tries to take potshots at someone..... maybe this has always been the case and i was merely oblivious to it before recent events but what ever happened to the good humored side of the site (tracey once told me that the level of interaction here was equivalent to the of a high school locker room, and i told her thats where the site got its charm). i dont see where critisizing the admin's decisions is useful they tried to be leanient but when they gave an inch the member ran a mile, all that we are doing by reflecting upon this is undermining the admin's authority.... or am i missing something?
desiderata	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 4:30 PM Allowing someone back who was already banned undermines the admins authority. So too does using their power to do things that don't need to be done, like deleting pretty, poetic absurdist writing by Kingo, me, et al. Having said that, barring any thread new deletions or any accusations from ChillinBuzz that I'm a lesbian or somesuch, I'm not sure I have much else to say on this topic.
kingo	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:20 PM Desiderata, you just put that lesbian thing in here to drag DeadraveN into this thread, didn't you?
desiderata	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 5:34 PM Nothing unites DMusic like a good lesbian ...
GTOriginal	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 6:22 PM I like bad lesbians way better... It's fun to sit back, watch the factions divide & clique together over such pure baloney. Almost makes me feel normal again. Thank you guys.
ChillinBuzz	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 7:47 PM a lesbian... never thought of that one before, that has something to do with you dating a man, i guess. have to admit that made me laugh
imemine	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:22 PM Someone say lesbian?
hantu	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:24 PM Must've been an echo
imemine	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:25 PM Must've been an echo
hantu	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:26 PM echo
imemine	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 8:37 PM o-o-o-o-o
K3VIN	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 9:21 PM shame on you for bringing this back up, Kingo. you really are a work of art... you only raised this just to cause trouble because you know he was banned this time for a series of insults and threats TO STAFF INCLUDED, which seems to be ok in your book. so very sad. FINE if you want to go on about deleted and blocked threads but STOP WHINING ABOUT HIM GETTING BANNED FOR HIS ACTIONS. what makes threatening staff any differnet then threatening anyone else? sure they put work into this site but that doesnt make it any more wrong. and you assuming kingos doing this to start trouble is hilarious.. kingo has an opinion. its only casuing trouble because people raise a stink about it saying its causing a problem.
imemine	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 9:26 PM You so bad K3VIN! You Mr. Badass huh?
Woof	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 10:47 PM Let's keep it civil, folks... Please. I'm only trying to get a straight answer to legitimate questions here, and I assure you I do not consider these issues "Pure Baloney". Many DM members have been very upset by some goings on at the site of late, and the idea is to get straight on what is, and is not, permitted, so that we can proceed from there and get on with our life in the community peacefully and cooperatively. I would like to thank the Admins who took the time to respond in detail to my concerns. I believe it has been made clear that quoting a DM Member who has been banned is prohibited. That is one of the answers that I was seeking when I posted this. I'm also assuming that some degree of reasonable discussion regarding the banning of a member is permitted, as this thread has not been locked. I appreciate that. It allows the community to clarify their views and concerns in the interest of preventing future indecision. As for the deletion of Kingo's second thread, which contained no quotes, I'm still not sure why that got erased, however I'd guess it was the result of folks' nerves being pretty frayed after a couple of very long, trying weeks. We're all human, and would hope that said erasure is simply accepted as one of those things that occasionally occurs which can't really be blamed on anyone. Like a server outage, or something. Please, let's just go on now... a little older, a little wiser, and a little more prepared. I really would like to not have to take sides between different members in the community. Thank You All. Peace.
GTOriginal	Date: July 14, 2006 @ 11:16 PM I was all set to walk out of this when I saw myself being quoted, and out of context too, typical. This is why we are a community. We are entitled to have differences of opinion and we are also allowed to express them freely within reason. Now, to clarify my remark about BALONEY: it was not directed at the initial post on this thread, it was directed at the many inane responses and the way little clusters of friends rally together when the heat is on. Me? Completely excluded from that because I have no friends, therefore I speak freely from my own perspective. I have seen a person get banned from here who deserved it. I have also seen people get banned who didn't deserve it as far as I am aware, and can only assume they violated rules as well. Do I have a right to know why? No, not really. If the admins were power hungry or ban happy, you wouldn't be reading this because I would have been squeezed out of here years ago. BUT I also think the post in question was not deleted by accident, especially since there are a few legitimate explanations up there. ^^^
cantillon	Date: July 21, 2006 @ 6:46 AM I agree that when dmusic was "young" it was free and easy. Lately, I have noticed a few timid and not so timid censorships by admins. I'm thinking it's just a result of getting even more people to dmusic. Look at the world, the more of us there are the more trouble we get ourselves into. Plus, forums are for most of the time, just venting systems that no one takes too seriously. I'm guessing, but if people were truly dangerous about what they thought, they would be on the streets with placards shouting slogans, not trying to be a smart arse on some relatively unknown forum or another. Or is that just me ?
plungerboy	Date: August 17, 2006 @ 7:18 PM I believe that if your getting something nice for free, respect it. DMusic is a gift for greater good ( ) where people can share thoughts and music. A twisted opinion is one thing, abusing someone is another. If you smack a policeman he will arrest you. If you threaten an admin, he will ban you. Point is that we should be thankful for this community, but respect everyone in it. This is not myspace Peace