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Round 2: Obama

ShadowMom	Date: October 7, 2008 @ 4:31 PM Go ahead... make my day. The defining moment for me? When Obama said health care is a right, and McCain said it was a responsibility. I think that defines the difference in the two parties.
Cryxan	Date: October 7, 2008 @ 7:59 PM Unfortunately taking responsibility for ourselves is going out of style faster than new taxpayers are joining the workforce...
sinai	Date: October 7, 2008 @ 10:25 PM ^^^ a fucking men!
ShadowMom	Date: October 8, 2008 @ 12:17 AM Tell that to all the autoworkers, steelworkers, and construction workers who no longer have jobs. It seems that brotherhood and compassion have also gone out of style. I believe in trickle-down economics-- not the Republican kind where money is poured into corporations and CEO's pockets, with the expectation that it will trickle down to Joe Six-pack. That will not happen. But the kind where people help those less fortunate than they are. I'm not a religious person, but isn't there something in that world-famous book about being your brother's keeper?
Tattoomom	Date: October 8, 2008 @ 12:33 AM The scary part is when McCain talked about "some programs would have to be eliminated entirely". For those of you in the non-social services world...for Republicans that usually means social programs. Yes, this affects programs like Food Stamps, Medicaid for children and the elderly, and subsidized child care. But it also affects community service and restitution programs, group homes which house kids too risky to release into the community, but to young to send to prison, programs to assist the elderly with heating costs, domestic violence intervention and treatment programs...etc. Whether or not you approved of your tax dollars going to assist needy folks, statistics prove that administrations who cut or eliminate social programs have to increase spending in areas like law enforcement and incarceration. So take a look at what each part plans to cut and try to let that trickle down until it affects you. Just because you don't receive food stamps, doesn't mean that the guy who just broke into your house and stole your guitar couldn't have really used them to feed his three kids...
Israfel	Date: October 8, 2008 @ 1:22 AM Oh yes, I caught that too Crystal. Those programs first cut are always social service programs which are barely scraping by as it is. Put it this way, if these programs no longer exist there will be more crime, more addiction, more poverty, more homelessness, and more hopelessness. They talk about reforming Social Security and Medicare but that's one small slice of the pie. It will have an effect on the disabled and force them to live even poorer than they do now AND not have adequate health care.
GTOriginal	Date: October 8, 2008 @ 1:25 AM They made me clear away all the ground support equipment from the ramp today in the crappy airport job that I took after my career fell apart in 2003. The reason is because McCain is coming to town and they are gonna park his plane in the cargo area. As a security coordinator I will have access to it. Haha, I'm gonna go play my guitar now.
zedsalt	Date: October 8, 2008 @ 4:59 AM I hate to go getting picky about semantics again, S'Mom, but the kind of charity you're talking about has NOTHING to do with trickle-down economics, and one of the biggest differences is that we can always count on the compassion of the middle and lower economic classes. A tiny portion of the wealthy do great things with a relatively small portion of their wealth, and bless them for it, but one of the reasons that building an economy from the ground up is always more effective and durable is that the compassion that seems to be lacking in most of the wealthy is so common among the common. Note to the Secret Service: Gary is the kind of guy who is likely to plant a turd in your luggage, NOT an explosive device. Watch him, sure...who would want a turd in their luggage?...but there's no need for gunplay.
zedsalt	Date: October 8, 2008 @ 5:12 AM I thought it was really telling when Brokaw asked them to prioritize three issues: energy, health care, and entitlement programs. Did everyone catch what happened there? McCain said he didn't see any need to create any sort of hierarchy, then talked about the issues in this order: energy, entitlement "reform", then health care. Obama expressed his opinion that you HAVE to set priorities if you're going to get anything done, then put energy first, then health care, then dispensed with the "issue" of entitlements entirely and said that we need to address education in order to address all of the other issues. Apparently, he has done enough in the way of grass roots charity work, recently enough, to know that entitlement reform is just a bugbear.
Distilled1	Date: October 8, 2008 @ 6:50 AM On 7th Oct 2012, Cryxan said: Unfortunately taking responsibility for ourselves is going out of style faster than new taxpayers are joining the workforce... Why may I ask do you think healthcare is a "right" I am one of those Construction workers who lost their job.. But I do not and never will think that it is a right to have health care, if I did I would move to a socialist country. Amen Cryxan as well we HAVE to take responsibility for our self we have to stop saying we need someone to take care of me ... and if its hard it is, that's how it has always been. I didn't watch it yet I recorded it sometime today I will, not that it will make me change my mind on that. Social services are needed and shouldn't be cut. like T'mom says if your robbed it may be the guy could have used food stamps (well a little card now) let me say this... no mater WHO is elected we will be in a recession for a long time and it WILL get worse there is no turning it right back to what it was.. if you haven't been touched at work yet, wait it will come, 15 friends now have been laid off or had hours cut to part time pretty much in the past month. the food pantry has cut back on how much you can get as they have had double the use and 75% less donations. We will have to learn to live without all the wants and credit. America no mater your political stand point witch fence you are sitting on or are over, you have to take RESPONSIBILITY for your self, trust in YOU not in some elected pile of shit! to take care of YOU
GTOriginal	Date: October 8, 2008 @ 7:39 AM Ha! He came here, bad-mouthed his competitor for a while, and left. Pretty much what I expected. On 7th Oct 2012, Cryxan said: Unfortunately taking responsibility for ourselves is going out of style faster than new taxpayers are joining the workforce... So... it's going out of style like really really slowly then?
zedsalt	Date: October 8, 2008 @ 9:50 AM "Social services are needed and shouldn't be cut. like T'mom says if your robbed it may be the guy could have used food stamps (well a little card now)" But it's fine if his desperation is due to health problems experienced by him or his family? When people need to go to the emergency room because they couldn't afford preventative care or earlier, cheaper, less drastic treatment...who do you think pays for that? When people use the ER for ALL of their health concerns, because they can't afford a general practitioner...who do you think pays that needlessly-expensive bill? Well, unless you were lucky enough to get to keep your health insurance from that construction gig, I guess it won't be you, not right now. It is about personal responsibility; I'll agree, but we seem to have different definitions of what "taking responsibility" means. I was raised to expect responsibilities along with our rights.
ShadowMom	Date: October 8, 2008 @ 3:27 PM "Why may I ask do you think healthcare is a "right" ?" IS a right? I think it should be a right. It's not yet. It's sort of like education-- you don't mind your taxes being used for that, do you? Although the wingnuts are working diligently to privatize that, too. And when they do, there won't be a middle class-- there will be those who have (as in education and health care) and those who have not. And guess which side you and I fall on? The government should provide for the common good-- and in my opinion, a healthy, well-educated population IS the common good. One person taking on the health care industry isn't going to even make the news. It's the government's job to police industries like that, and OUR job to police the government, and vote their sorry carcasses OUT OF OFFICE if they don't do their jobs.
Israfel	Date: October 9, 2008 @ 1:18 AM Hear, hear Mom! I agree. It's fine to talk about cutting back and learning to live with out all the wants and credit and I agree with that BUT we're talking about apples and oranges here. Those cuts that would make it inconvenient and harder on middle America will make it downright impossible for those living under the fringe. I work with people who have no credit, live only with the very basic needs met on less than $800 per month - rent, utilities, food, etc. must ALL be paid out of that. Top that off with coping with a disability and you have something that is already inconvenient and hard. Damn straight, health care should be a right as well as education. This still is a government for the people, by the people... well, sort of...I think it's stopped representing a lot of the people a long, long time ago.
GTOriginal	Date: October 9, 2008 @ 2:18 AM We are slipping into the third world because of 2 corrupt administration terms. There are actually people in the USA who think basic neccesities are now badges of responsibility? Incredible. Sad. One can only laugh.... Personally, I got a BIG laugh out of McCain jerking his thumb at Obama and saying "that one over there..." That was really funny, only one small step away from "you know how those people are..."
Tattoomom	Date: October 9, 2008 @ 3:31 AM I first got into social services back in early 90s for a very specific reason. I actually have a degree in accounting as well. I worked for a flooring mill as their accounts payable/receivable and payroll accountant. The company is a million dollar a year industry in our tiny little town and they provide a lot of employment to folks in the flooring mill. Now bear in mind, I'm sitting in my office and these guys are working in the mill and they WORK, buddy! The sweat buckets in the summer and freeze their asses off in the winter! Back at that time, the folks there made more than the minimum wage and the company was considered an "employee friendly" company. So after taxes and health insurance held out of their paychecks for their children, some of these guys took home about $90 a week in cash. Now you tell me who can live on that? The kicker was that most of them made too much to get food stamps or medicaid or other types of governmental assistance. I decided to go back to school and into social work so that I could bring change to that welfare system... 20 years later I don't think I accomplished that goal and I think other than the minimum wage being a bit higher...nothing has really changed for the average worker either....
Distilled1	Date: October 9, 2008 @ 7:41 AM I/m a lucky one I ride on the wifes insurance (at 650 a month for family 3 years ago it was 150!) and sad thing is unless somethings broke I don't go, what a waste hu? I mean I have to have a broken bone or be bleeding so bad I cant tape my skin shut, or from somewhere I shouldn't. Point in case, who paid for this: ( I guess me? but the hospital that is private owned sues them for it???) I had 2 young ladies stay with me from last Christmas for 3 months, 18 and 24 they needed a place to live. they used the ER weekly and sometimes twice a week! for three (3) months! the bills still come here, this was for cramps! to get pain meds.. and if it wasn't cramps it was some other non medical need thing (my back hurts... (well maybe get off it and do some work? ) I know there are those that need it people with diabetes that can't get help through the ER, but how is it a right? where does it state that you have the right to the best health care? We can go round and round.. the issue isn't the government it is big corporation insurance company's. I remember (and I am not that old) going to the family Dr. and mom did not have insurance, we were billed and they were family and took payments and did not have to charge an arm and a leg. And why not now?( I can get ER with no $ but try to step into a Dr. office on the reception desk: "all bills will be paid in full at time of service!" )it has to be lawsuits and the cost of malpractice insurance, insurance that accepts the cost of one Aspirin to be 9.65! so the cost to us goes up, and to me it seems like a viscous circle. the cost to even get into the health care profession Dr./Nurse is astronomical, was it always? I don't think so, at least not like it is today. should there be some sort of basic health care? yep that everyone has to pay for sliding scale? something, would I rather my taxes pay for a better education system, health care basics, and other more social things than a bailout? YOU BET! but its not going to happen ...sad to say neither one of them will make a change like that for the better no matter what spin they put on it. Guess the bottom line is its about Greed. all of it and it seems ...America is about Greed.
GTOriginal	Date: October 9, 2008 @ 12:40 PM Hmmm... I have three children - the first two were born when I was employed on the executive level and had killer insurance. Both times we were saddled with massive leftover bills that almost killed us. When Johnny came along, I had no benefits whatsoever. We went to a free clinic and got superior care for no money. Wish I was poor for the first two, it's way cheaper.
zedsalt	Date: October 9, 2008 @ 1:10 PM Having enough food to avoid death by starvation is not an American right. Having a roof over one's head is not an American right. And if you saw the debate, you know no one suggested that health care should be the right of every American. What Obama said was that, as a nation, we are capable of meeting the basic needs of our citizenry without increasing our debt to foreign countries. What McCain said was that the greatest peril of a comprehensive health care plan is the notion of making it some sort of mandate. Oh, yeah! And potential abuse of that system! Don't forget potential abuse...mostly by patients, but by greedy insurance companies, too. But, don't worry; he has a well-publicized, comprehensive plan that addresses potential abuse. Both of the major parties' proposals, each in its own way, address potential abuse. Both specifically propose means of putting a stop to people using emergency care as their primary care. Neither, to the best of my knowledge, have any provisions regarding something that costs every taxpayer (not just every paying patient) MUCH, MUCH more money day after day: people with that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude towards their personal health. The unpaid bills due to unnecessary ER visits are overwhelmingly DWARFED by the catastrophic health care costs of patients who could've easily avoided catastrophic care. Both major parties' plans provide for lowering the bill for those regular check-ups and health maintenance. Neither proposes any sort of penalty for being irresponsible enough to skip them. Eliminate price-gouging by and of the insurance companies? Eliminate use of the ER as primary care? Provisions specific to diabetes (something the majority of adult Americans suffer from, most of them unwittingly)? Tougher penalties for frivolous malpractice suits (even higher standards for what is considered “frivolous”...making mistakes which are outrageous to any person of reason immune to penalty)? All of this is covered by both plans. The way you’re talking, Dis'1, it sounds like you think comprehensive national health issues are somehow a distraction from...well, from comprehensive national health care plan issues.
zedsalt	Date: October 9, 2008 @ 1:13 PM And, Dis'1, you touched on one thing that never has been required by U.S. law, something that no one is proposing be mandated, something I WOULD like to see legally guaranteed: I'd like to see some sort of penalty for allowing a person to die, just because that person was unable to answer the question, "And how do you plan to pay for this?" I think that it's shameful how many times per hour this happens in the U.S. Often, it's not even an ability-to-pay matter; it's an ability-to-comprehensibly-respond matter. People are being allowed to die, because there's a possibility they're unable to pay. A comprehensive national health care plan could make it safe to assume...very nearly 100% of the time...that there won't be an outstanding bill.
Distilled1	Date: October 9, 2008 @ 1:36 PM Yeah I am all over the fence on on it hu? I really can not ever get my ideas across right in text LOL. But I was still responding to the OP where "right" and "responsibility" were used to define the two Obama and Mcbain.. oh wait thats Mccain, this isn't the Simpsons is it
zedsalt	Date: October 10, 2008 @ 3:07 AM That's right; McBain is Schwarzenegger (sp?), loosely, only more far right-wing than Arnold or the pre-campaign McCain...
DJEV	Date: October 11, 2008 @ 3:35 AM what I have to say about healthcare.... I am on SSI/SSD when I go to hospitals or Doctors? IT REALLY pisses me off! Why? I think, no I KNOW there is a lot of FINACIAL DISCIMINATION out there, and bah! its pathetic!! What sucks? Is these supposed "healthcare PROFESSIONALS" look and see my Medicare and Medicaid cards like they are covered in some sort of poison!! Lets go back in time, shall we? for a I was attending college FROM HOME, trying to become INDIEPENDANT... I move into a H.U.D. building ( wont do THAT AGAIN) I was lied to, about the apartment building and code!!! So, I have to get a LETTER from my Doctor to EVEN get an APARTMENT with a bathtub (many still had just showers) So, i'm taking online classes, but yet have to GO to the college to take the tests?? I get up, take a shower.. the boiler system turns water from cold to hot to boiling hot due to poor maintaince, I get scalded and end up going ass over teakettle out of that shower, NO BARS to grab that would've protected me from falling So, back to healthcare here... I go to the doctor after the E.R. fails to see ANYTHING WRONG!! 13 months LATER after going around and aroung the clinic I was "assigned" to go to? Nothing!! I DEMAND a specialist!! FINALLY I see someone that knows what the hell he is doing.. now this is May of '07 I fell Oct'06 Oh lookie here, Ms.Eve has Ulnar Nerve damage in her left elbow, don't know if surgery will do good, cuz THE DAMAGE is extensive to the nerve... surgery is 50/50 So I get it done, to hopefully save my 2 left fingers on my hand... well it worked a little, but my left pinky and left ring finger are STILL out "hunting squirrels" Oh now, that leg pain I was having since I fell..... grrrrrrrrrrr I see the same specialist!! I go see a PAIN MANAGEMENT person... HOW DARE ME on MY medicare and medicaid... by this time I'm dragging my left leg , going for epidural blocks, nothing is helping THE BIGGEST Blow comes when I have to have home health care ( which THIS COUNTRY NEEDS MORE OF BADLY!!!) one morning I slept with a heating pad on low, due to I could no longer feel that part of my back, I reached around to change my shirt and my homehealth care nurse notices a blister the size of a golf ball, off we go to the ER... I have an epidural block that day, the E.R. DOES NOTHING!! I go to my pain block, and also for an MRI I was told by my pain specialist, who ORDERED the MRI and explained IN DETAIL that my problem is getting worse.. ( well f$#^ing DUH) I go for an MRI, and was told I would here from my Pain Management guy within an hour. my home care person and I didnt even pull into my parking lot before I got the call to return IMMEDIATLEY to the ER to meet with a Neurosurgeon... I was admitted and had Emergency surgery on my back the next morning! 4 hours of it!! A disc removed from L4-L5 and was told "the surgery took longer due to a free floating piece of bone wedged into your spinal space" COME ON NOW? AM I a toy put together? Like where is the extra piece? No therapy? Just a scooter, for another year!!! Healthcare is discriminatory!!! and it pisses me off in so many different ways!! If I had the BLUE CROSS BLUE SHEILD stuff, do you honestly think I would've went thru that much hell just to see WHO I WAS supposed to see in the first place??? hmmmmmmmmmm??? Healthcare is it a "right" HELL YES IT IS!!! It is a MUST!!!! What about Dental??? As we age? Most of us, our teeth get worst, for whatever reason, mine? due to having my daughter drained alot of calcium from my body, this HAPPENS OFTEN!! Hell!! I cannot even RECIEVE dental unless I PAY for it myself!! talk about GREED?? BEEN TO THE DENTIST LATELY?? Greedy bastards!! Speaking Greed here? MCCAIN!! GREEDY BASTARD #1 this is a man who owns 7 houses! tried to say he didnt EVEN KNOW how many he had?? hello MCCAIN??? Your wife is RICH!!! oh you all can see her, shes the wife standing like a freaking BARBIE DOLL who does not say a word!! LOOK INTO HER BACK GROUND!!! McCain has a lot of nerve to point fingers!! Finally, I lived in Arizona for 17 years before moving to Montana!! MCCain is the biggest ASSHOLE of a Senator FOR Arizona he doesn't have A CLUE on what he is doing there!! IF WE THE PEOPLE would get off our ASSES and start standing UP for ourselves and saying "HEY WE THE PEOPLE DO NOT WANT IT THIS WAY NO MORE....." MORE OFTEN maybe just maybe the city commission meeting, one voice at a time, will change things a little at a time!! I worked my ass off, Im not living on NO ONES I paid INTO this system like EVERYONE else... Now I have to live on $660 a month!!! and yes I get ( that little card) and trust me YOU budget $ 33.25 a week for YOUR food!! I moved here to Ohio, to do what we ALL SHOULD DO... Help out our parents in NEED, due to some F&%#ing bank screwed him royal on a loan 2 years ago, due to his age!! but then that is ANOTHER I cannot comment on what I DO NOT know? But what I DO KNOW, is SHIT HAS TO CHANGE AND CHANGE NOW!!! I am voting for BARACK OBAMA because he IS CHANGE, people in his family have BEEN THERE DONE THAT!! This is the end of my rant... thanks for reading...
Cryxan	Date: October 11, 2008 @ 6:16 AM yikes...
AbortiveMind	Date: October 11, 2008 @ 9:14 AM On 11th Oct 2012, Cryxan said: yikes... I second you We've studied the American health care system in class and I know that it's not the best, especially compared to my country (which is Belgium) but Holy Moly Eve ... reading your story just instantly took my breath away
Mojosnake	Date: October 11, 2008 @ 9:35 AM eh.... it matters not anyway....politics are politics...and nothings gonna change.....when was the last time it did? it's all hype.....
AbortiveMind	Date: October 11, 2008 @ 9:39 AM I disagree with you Mojo. Politics may be politics, but as in many countries, politics rule over many systems of off which the citizens are depending. I think that it is wrong to have this "Nothing is going to change" mentality, 'cause then one ought not to expect change. But it is needed (and I'm not just talking about the USA) and YES it will take time. I think it is important to have it done step by step, 'cause a major change might just upset it all (e.g Reformations in China by Deng Xiaoping)
GTOriginal	Date: October 11, 2008 @ 9:48 AM Wellll... In the early 90s I lost a career position and replaced it with a crappy job. In the mid 90s I was back up to building a career which escalated nicely until the early 00s when I lost a career position and replaced it with a crappy job. All of this follows the curve of the economy, which likewise folows the curve of partisan power in Washington. The down times were also marked by times of war, with republicans named Bush in power. Shit definately changes.
zedsalt	Date: October 11, 2008 @ 10:45 AM I'm praying for some sort of medical miracle for DJEV, partially because I would expect either major party's plan to fall short of miraculous in actual implementation. I'm still scratching my head over the failure of the old Hillary Clinton plan. I mean, as a group, rich old Conservative white Republican men railed long and loud against her plan, when it was pretty much nothing but rich old Conservative white Republican men who wrote it. I'm glad to see health care being treated as a campaign issue, at least.
Cryxan	Date: October 11, 2008 @ 2:24 PM That's not how I meant my "yikes." I've been through the mill, and I have an HMO and good insurance. (Yeah, it costs me.) But healthcare is a complex system and even with good coverage, you absolutely have to be proactive or you'll slip through the cracks. Especially if you're dealing with multiple departments. Back when I was unemployed for about a year and had a problem, I went to the dr and paid up. If it turned out to be a big problem (luckily it wasn't) I was prepared to go out and get a loan so I could pay for the services. We normally pay for services received, no?
zedsalt	Date: October 12, 2008 @ 3:52 AM It seems to me like the HMO approach, any implementation of it that I've personally encountered, is a counterproductive mess. I'm sure there are exceptions out there...ones that prove the rule...but it borders on comical how much worse the error rate is and how many more needless, dangerous delays there are when we wrap something as complicated as medical care up into monolithic private bureaucracies. It makes sense to me that there should be fewer problems of that sort when they don't have to operate across a number of business entities...so why does it almost never work that way? Pharmaceuticals, especially...why are things so much worse when they're under the same umbrella as the people doing the prescribing? Not that I have unshakable faith in our governments ability to create and administer worthwhile bureaucracies, but I like the idea of some sort of lose, uniform set of guidelines.
zedsalt	Date: October 12, 2008 @ 3:54 AM And I don't have any objections to the idea of mandating the kind of personal responsibility Cryxan mentioned; that's another thing I like about the comprehensive reforms that have been proposed. A friend-of-a-friend-of-a-girlfriend of one of my friends here at DM was bragging once about how he'd stiffed the same hospital twice for treatment of severe headwounds he received while trying to walk across a "waterfall" (an aeration drop in a sewage treatment canal). I should clarify- he tried to walk across at least twice, severely wounded his head twice...two incidents, years apart...and twice got to the point where the hospital gave up on trying to collect the debt. And he was SO proud of himself for it! That's another thing I'd like to see change.
GTOriginal	Date: October 12, 2008 @ 4:23 AM Many of us shirk our responsibilities at every turn and bilk the system for all it's worth.
Distilled1	Date: October 20, 2008 @ 9:01 AM "BLUE CROSS BLUE SHEILD stuff, do you honestly think I would've went thru that much hell just to see WHO I WAS supposed to see in the first place??? hmmmmmmmmmm???" EV Yes you would see I have BCBS HMO that cost $650.00 a month (not including the part my wifes employer pays) and we have to run in circles to get to see anyone but the "general" physician, and even when he gives the referral, the insurance will not allow it over and over and over! We had to fight tooth and nail, to see a cancer specialist, so that its not just oh well your 68 year old family Dr. can decide what to do, and get specialist to give us some options. took 2 years and what could have been treatment turned into a major surgery, not only would it have saved them $ it would have saved much $, time and emotional stress for my family. We are switching to an Atena PPO plan now about 100 less a month and still an HMO type but we can pay a higher price in bills to go to who ever we want.. and again it is a responsibility .. not a government given right, its not anywhere in the constitution.. but the kicker its more so a responsibility of the medical field (they do take a fucking oath!) they do get into it to help people no? (that's probably untrue today I bet its for $$$ and greed). And the Insurance Industruy and SSI/Medicade/care needs to hold that same responsibilty as the Private sector. Fact is I do not want the Government in my business, not with health not with anything. Here in Illinois they have a great State run program called ALL KIDS(this includes Mothers of Children as well, ANY ONE can get it its not the best but if your income is low you pay ZERO for everything , even Xanax and stop smoking pills, anything! Dentist , EYE doctors etc. I have a friend who uses it took 1 month to get. if she made 30,000 a year she would still get it with a co-pay of 20.00 a visit and 5$ scrips. And 120,000 a year? Yes still get it, just an higher co-pay (the governor is loosing the battle to keep it going, due to there is no $ to pay for it... is this similar to Obamas plan? if it is it may be good (and being hw's a Illinois guy it may be, but where does the come from? higher taxes, and hell avg Americans pay 41% in taxes now compared to 12% in 1978 (I think thats right maybe it was '87)
ShadowMom	Date: October 20, 2008 @ 11:09 AM Fact is... government is already in your business. You just about made my case for me-- no one stops Big Medicine from charging whatever they feel like charging, and adding an insurer in between your money and your doctor is SURE to give it a big bump. You don't want government? Hmmmm... no roads, no bridges, no libraries, no PUBLIC SCHOOLS, no social security, no police and fire departments?? The system is fine, as long as you don't NEED it and can afford it. All those things are for the common good. You already pay for uninsured people, only it might be better to PREVENT disease than to treat it. And if you don't see how a healthy America IS for the common good, the same as an educated America is good? Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned tree-hugger. So kick me; I'll still pick you up when you fall, if I can.
victorsskull	Date: October 20, 2008 @ 11:35 AM
moam	Date: October 20, 2008 @ 11:42 AM On 20th Oct 2012, victorsskull said: That was some deep insight, Vic
Distilled1	Date: October 20, 2008 @ 1:14 PM On 20th Oct 2012, ShadowMom said: Fact is... government is already in your business. You just about made my case for me-- no one stops Big Medicine from charging whatever they feel like charging, and adding an insurer in between your money and your doctor is SURE to give it a big bump. Yep I said that already "it is a responsibility .. not a government given right, its not anywhere in the constitution.. but the kicker its more so a responsibility of the medical field (they do take a fucking oath!) they do get into it to help people no? (that's probably untrue today I bet its for $$$ and greed)" their shouldn't need to be any one STOPing them from charging as they do in fact medical should not be a lucrative big business at all, it should be the people that care that others are feeling good. adding another middleman (the GOV) into it and regulating makes more red tape to cut and more hoops to jump through and MORE phat cats with their wallets out to collect even more [QUOTE info=ShadowMom,October 20, 2008 @ 11:09 AM]Fact is... government is already in your business. You don't want government? Hmmmm... no roads, no bridges, no libraries, no PUBLIC SCHOOLS, no social security, no police and fire departments?? The system is fine, as long as you don't NEED it and can afford it. [/ I don't want the fed Gov to be involved in my local infrastructure nope, why (I pay tolls on the federal interstates! and have a 55mph 65(in very few) speed limit, its BS .. neighbors Indiana road work signs (creating roads and jobs! (that's fantastic, the issue (and Michigan has the same issue, they loose out for allowing a 75mph limit and have the worst roads EVER!) they have to tear up roads that are fine re build continuously work on them and spend the federal funds or they don't get anymore! that's just plain waste! "no PUBLIC SCHOOLS" Well seems to me my local tax of 8G a year and state income tax pay for that, but I was all for the tax break for Private Schools (I find they are better normally, I am lucky my son goes to one of the top Middle Schools in the country Public) "no social security" - honestly I dont think it will be there when I am retired (I kinda am now eh? ) and it sucks that I have no say in the investments on MY Money that I sold my bones for! " no bridges," well if I lived in Miami I would worry about this one , but again this is an infrastructure issue, and a lot is run by bonds at least in many states (I guess I see local government a better source for many things, one that public office is controlled more by the people for the people, and why voting you should truly worry about the congress and house reps more so than the asshats we call president) "no libraries" again my local property tax pays for this, is there federal funding in it? I am sure because just like the guy scamming the Hospital and not paying twice for the same stupid injury. Everyone has their I deserve this hand out when is out there (this goes for all the above!) " no police and fire departments" another item that should and for the most part are run locally.. and I could do without the police, I don't know how much they get from where .. enlighten me, but I bet it depends state to state... [QUOTE] You already pay for uninsured people, only it might be better to PREVENT disease than to treat it. I do think so, that's what I said about my states ALL KIDS program (that includes Adult mothers of Children as well, as a great program, that still needs work, it should include all everyone males included. (by the way they treat the free people the same as the "name brand" paid for insurance, side by side same Dentist my bill 1200.00 the Lady with free health care 10.00 or gas instead of just Novocaine! same Dentist as well. Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned tree-hugger. So kick me; I'll still pick you up when you fall, if I can. :kick: :tree: no no no I am just trying to hear all sides, yours (now a new name old fashioned tree hugger does that mean you do it without letting body's touch or where gloves and such? ZedSalts views, Genes or anyone else that gets into these threads and talks. Including my own view points, I find it a great way to see what we all are about, and it makes no matter what camp any of us are in, I see great view points in it all (most the time) I am not Kicking anyone nor trying to push my views, more asking Questions without the ? as well as learning myself, I hope that maybe some of what I say makes some sense. at least once or twice :ghug: oh and the Trickle down (from the Regan era, no it wasn't because of Clinton, in cfact because of Clinton and NAFTA I can only say thank you for sending my 20$ an hour job to mexico, so I could build what I did after), Trickled to me for 7 years worth of great! and now like Gary I sit in a recession, and have to start over, exc ept I can't even get a job at taco bell and the factory's all went with NAFTA to Mexico or China, and the Warehouse jobs that are abundant here pay less than Taco Bell!! (not worth an older guy to sell the remaining bones from my back!) I guess this ranting just shows how bitter I am they allowed the housing bubble to grow so big, out of greed and I wish preview worked so I could see if I am an ass or we had an EDIT function!!!!! EDIT come on its 2008!!!!! can't we get a new PHP BB put in
Distilled1	Date: October 20, 2008 @ 1:19 PM see damn!! we need PREVIEW and not even JUST AN EDIT!!! does this have an edit thats just turned off? UGG now its an unreadable mess!
leplume	Date: October 20, 2008 @ 4:20 PM But maybe it should be a right. Just a thought. I mean, a "government for the people, by the people" should put the people first, don't you think? Maybe the government should stop looking at ways to cover for big medicine and start looking at ways to cover the basic health care of the people it must rely on to make the country work. Why are prescription drugs cheaper in Canada? And why does the AMA want to stop people from going there to get them? Because they can't make money, that's why! And our government stands up for that. It's understandable to be bitter. Why wouldn't we? Our government turns a blind eye to what the average person has to go through while it bails out corrupt business who've mismanaged funds that have hurt millions of people. Instead of wasting all that time and energy why don't they make bug medicine accountable. Ever need a Kleenex while you're in the hospital? They give you one and then charge you $8 for the whole box. Yes, some of that goes to subsidize those that can't pay for their health care but MOST of it is greed. Plain old greed. So I say, let's make it a right. Health care for all equally. If that makes me a Socialist (or a tree hugger lol) , so be it!
leplume	Date: October 20, 2008 @ 4:21 PM bug medicine? Okay, I'm with distilled...where's the friggan' EDIT feature!!
GeneHilbert	Date: October 21, 2008 @ 3:00 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=491_5WxfcgI
zedsalt	Date: October 21, 2008 @ 4:06 AM Again, Dis', you're expressing righteous (IMHO) outrage over problems that are PRECISELY THE PROBLEMS the proposals you say you DON'T want to see enacted were designed to address. This time, you've even included a real life model of the sort of program you DO see as a positive force, and it was designed by the SAME PEOPLE, based on the not just the SAME PRINCIPLES but the SAME APPROACH as one of the proposal packages you say you DON'T want to see enacted, with possibly the biggest difference being the ONE change you said you thought would be an improvement. It's no wonder the NeoCons have been so successful in promoting and sustaining the ridiculous notion that government is only "big" and "intrusive" when it serves the people. Complaining is much more fun and much easier than taking any kind of personal responsibility for ensuring that our government works for US.
GeneHilbert	Date: October 21, 2008 @ 8:28 AM "They are always under the dominion of the superstition of government, and forgetting that a government produces nothing at all, they leave out of sight the first fact to be remembered in all social discussion that the state cannot get a cent for any man without taking it from some other man, and this latter must be a man who has produced and saved it. This latter is the Forgotten Man." William Graham Sumner,
zedsalt	Date: October 22, 2008 @ 3:27 AM My hope is that there turns out to be some truth to all of the talk about more "Forgotten" people voting this year than ever before. The election of the candidates that best represent us would be bound to fall well short of our collective aspirations, enough so that many would take the attitude, "Forget (or another word begining in F) voting" from here on, but that's still pretty attractive when compared to the alternative. The alternative seems like nothing short of the failure of this great experiment...either a statement that the majority of us don't think ourselves capable of self-rule by proxy and/or the realization that the toxic rot of the political machine has gotten too far out of hand to be salvaged (a powerful machine meant to serve us gets the idea that we should serve it- that's scary enough to be the plot of hundreds of SciFi movies).
GTOriginal	Date: October 22, 2008 @ 3:41 AM I think Jon Bon Jovi should pay all of my healthcare costs for the next sixty years, to make amends for Bad Medicine.
zedsalt	Date: October 22, 2008 @ 3:55 AM We have a miniature, more intense, version of the bigger picture happening here in Happy Hoosierland. This is our current Governor's first official political post. I say "official", because he has a great deal of experience with being part of one of those business communities that take over and ravage a city (or in this case, a strange critter we call a "unigov", a hybrid of city and county). His time in office should serve as an example of what happens when we turn to the corporate world for leadership in order to avoid "politicians": all of the worst things we've come to associate with the term are magnified hundredfold. The absolute worst of the "career" political world are angels of goodness and light compared to what businessmen do when they play at politics. "Our Man Mitch" has pushed through legislation with disaproval ratings into the eighty and ninety percent range, one piece of which is guaranteed by law to continue doing its damage for another seventy years plus. He vowed to be a one-term Governor, but he's changed his tune lately. And he just might win. The state Democrat machine had their own businessman-wanting-to-play-politician. We chose, instead, a woman who has devoted her entire adult life to giving the agricultural and educational communities of Indiana a voice. She's bound to clear, at the state level, some of the toxic political rot I mentioned in my last post...and I can only guess by the Party's almost complete abandonment of her, that that kind of housecleaning is precisely what they're afraid of. It's looking like they're willing to sacrifice our well-being, temporarily, and set their sights on the Governor's mansion in 2012.
zedsalt	Date: October 22, 2008 @ 4:00 AM And, GTO, personally, I'm glad there's no such thing as being forced to make reparations for making bad music.
GeneHilbert	Date: October 22, 2008 @ 4:10 AM I could not have said it better. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjo85WhbYqM

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